WTF Goes Thru Peoples Heads? |
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Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:55 am GMT by wEbMaStEr
Not really advanced theory in any way, but what the hell are some people thinking?? This is a $30 sng and we're down to 4 so next player out is the bubble boy.
http://www.pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&hand=198428
I figure i can pick up this blind no problem, he calls off all his chips with KJoff? Does that filmaff shit really permeate so deeply that someone could think this is a good call in this situ?
Ok the f*cker had the best hand, but even if he thought he was ahead.... how far ahead did he think he could be? Is it really worth all his chips on the bubble on such a call?
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Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:40 pm GMT by TheSalche
Webby, why are you trying to increase your stack size by less than 5%?
I agree thats a poor call at a $33 with chip stacks like that, but man, you are ALLOWED to play poker at this stage.
I'll run the numbers through SnGPT when I get back home, but I'm sure if this play is +EV, it's very marginal at best.
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:13 pm GMT by Dave B
I guess I dont play here either w/ Q high (here or ever, but that is just me).
Would I call w/ KJ, heck no. KJ is a garbage hand against an all in. I dont care if I think I have him beat, it just isnt worth it. Now, if this is the 3rd or 4th time in a row that someone has done it from the same position, I may call (but still probably wouldnt).
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:04 pm GMT by wEbMaStEr
Yeah, if it was 3rd or 4th time or if the raiser had been showing junk then fair enough (maybe  )
But really, as a 1 off, all in from sb makes me think either, A9 or less or a small pp maybe, a hand that he doesn't really want a call with but a hand which prolly has KJoff beat going in. Certainly not going to gamble thinking that im ahead, and certainly not for all my chips on the bubble?
As for Salche's comment, bullying the bb is playing poker if everyone checks to me then it's my blind And hey! who knows, if we play this hand out then i win 40% of the time, when i have him well dominated in chips like that, him calling is a gamble im prepared to take at that stage. So i dont think my all in is in question! I never make a bad play! 8)
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:20 pm GMT by TheSalche
lol for the record pushing all-in a lot is NOT poker.
For example: I played 3 handed with two of my buds (who are serious about poker) for fun last night with 50 BB stacks and didn't change the blinds till it was heads up ... that was poker.
When I play PP $11s and push every third or fourth hand when the blinds get high, that is NOT playing poker.
Like I said, you're move was probably +EV, but when you have a big stack, theres no reason to risk it on a move that is barely +EV. If you really want to make a play here, raise 4xBB and make a good c/b, other than that you're going a little crazy.
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:35 pm GMT by Aves
good call on BB's part. bad move pushing all in with Q7. what's the argument about?
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:08 pm GMT by TheSalche
| Aves wrote: | | good call on BB's part. bad move pushing all in with Q7. what's the argument about? |
erm i wouldn't say calling an all-in with KJ is a great move ... if you do that all the time I want you in my tournies
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:31 pm GMT by wEbMaStEr
| Aves wrote: | | good call on BB's part. bad move pushing all in with Q7. what's the argument about? |
Get the f*ck outta here!
Yeah ok, good move on his part .......
IF HE CAN SEE MY CARDS!
If not then hes a total f*cking muppet.
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:33 pm GMT by zinn0
| wEbMaStEr wrote: | | If not then hes a total f*cking muppet. |
A muppet like, Kermit or Fozzy Bear? That is funny...could you see Kermit playing online poker with his head all bouncing around and shit?
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:37 pm GMT by wEbMaStEr
| Aves wrote: | | good call on BB's part. bad move pushing all in with Q7. what's the argument about? |
Ok, i was too hasty in my previous post, Aves you are exactly the person i want responding to this post if you think this was a smart move.
Now, explain, rather than just "good call on bb's part" If you really think so...... then please explain why you think so. Really, i want to understand why someone would make that call.
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:44 pm GMT by TheSalche
| wEbMaStEr wrote: |
Get the f*ck outta here!
Yeah ok, good move on his part .......
IF HE CAN SEE MY CARDS!
If not then hes a total f*cking muppet. |
Calm down there bluef0x ...
BTW: I just ran the numbers through SnGPT ... even with a TIGHT calling range of TT+,AQs+,AKo ... its +.3% and only goes down the looser the calling range.
Note: The program also points out *you have more than 10xBB, you should consider the strategic options besides moving all-in here*
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:58 pm GMT by suitedaces84
He had a better hand than you, therefore his call was good. It's pretty simple really.
Now let's say he made the same exact call only to find that you had KK. His call would then be bad.
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:04 pm GMT by wEbMaStEr
@ bluef0x comment.
Does the program mention that 99% of the time this is an insta-fold on bb's part and that even if i get called by a respectable hand there are only 5 hands which would make me worse than a 2:1 dog?
Even with the call of KJoff here i am "only" a 3:2 dog, at that point with all his chips in i'm happy with those odds, obviously it's not a move i'd be making if i didnt have chips back. but 3:2 to take a man out on the bubble when even if i lose i'm still in healthy shape? I'll take that day in day out.
basically with that move i'm saying..... "gimme the blind or face elimination, you choose."
I'm just surprised that he called with such a bad calling hand? Am i wrong?
Your point on the smaller raise salche, if i raise 3 or 4x bb and he moves ott, where do i go from there? i gotta muck right?
it's a defensive aggressive move.
It's not something i do every time, but occassionally used, and i think that situation was perfect for it, it can be a useful tool.
As it happens the caller made it all the way to 3rd and me and the other guy fought out 1st Turns out he was a muppet after all.
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:11 pm GMT by wEbMaStEr
| suitedaces84 wrote: | He had a better hand than you, therefore his call was good. It's pretty simple really.
Now let's say he made the same exact call only to find that you had KK. His call would then be bad. |
ok, let's say that he makes the call and his K doesn't hit but my Q does.
Would he have been unlucky? or just stupid for making the call in the first place?
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:15 pm GMT by suitedaces84
I was kinda hoping you would get the sarcasm on your own. You know what they say about a joke that has to be explained?
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:22 pm GMT by TheSalche
I think webby (and my) point about the BBs call being poor is that:
a) he is risking all his chips with a rather weak hand
b) regardless of villains hand strength, he may not be much more than a 2:1 favorite, but could easily be a 2.5:1 underdog
c) he has TWENTY times the big blind ... certainly theres a better spot to get your chips in
The point is that in the long-run its a bad call, for this particular hand, you can argue its a good call that he's ahead, but its a poor call because he is only slightly ahead and his real money EV is probably negative since losing the hand puts him out on the bubble.
Webby: I doubt he moves all in with King Jack here if you make a standard raise ... looking at the flop, he might be scared of an ace with 2nd pair there (depending on how you've played).
I know its all a matter of opinion, but I really think this is a poor move given the sizes of the blinds. Risk vs. reward ratio is simply HORRIBLE.
Posted Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:03 am GMT by Aves
To me, the big preflop moves (aka Hoyt Corkins poker school) show a fear or inability to play postflop. If I am the BB, I actually eliminate all premium hands from your hand range.
I think TheSalche sums up everything else pretty nicely.
Posted Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:55 am GMT by Johny
| Aves wrote: | To me, the big preflop moves (aka Hoyt Corkins poker school) show a fear or inability to play postflop. If I am the BB, I actually eliminate all premium hands from your hand range.
I think TheSalche sums up everything else pretty nicely. |
I wouldn't say inability to play post-flop and actually what would stop him from having AQ or AJ or even A-rag? The blinds are getting up there so it wouldn't surprise me.
The call with KJ is much worse than Webby's all-in. Pretty simple really, you need a better and to call a raise than to make one. 
Posted Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:42 pm GMT by zeroswarm
I will say that I've seen this kind of call before in sngs. I think what happens is that some players just hate getting their blinds stolen when they get high. So they just call any bet if they have anything even half decent.
Posted Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:59 pm GMT by BeerWench13
Webby, I'm not sure why you're upset with his call. It's a pure donk play Now if he'd raised w/ KJ it would be a different issue, but since he called it was a HORRIBLE play as was stated previously. I know he won, but don't you want this kind of call when you raise big normally? I know that was an attempt to steal and everyone does it, but either he made an incredible read or he was clueless regarding the value of calling with that hand. I'm willing to bet it was the latter. I want him at my table every time.
Posted Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:12 pm GMT by wEbMaStEr
| BeerWench13 wrote: | | Webby, I'm not sure why you're upset with his call. It's a pure donk play Now if he'd raised w/ KJ it would be a different issue, but since he called it was a HORRIBLE play as was stated previously. I know he won, but don't you want this kind of call when you raise big normally? I know that was an attempt to steal and everyone does it, but either he made an incredible read or he was clueless regarding the value of calling with that hand. I'm willing to bet it was the latter. I want him at my table every time. |
Wench your wisdom is as boundless as your alure!
You have indeed knocked the nail squarely on the head!
Yes! i want this call every single time i make this play, as i said above, even if i'm a 2:1 dog i'll take the call in this situation day in day out.
I'm not particularly upset about the call (other than the fact that he hit and won) I just want to understand why he would consider such a call to be a good idea.
That being said however, i would gladly exchange the knowledge of why he made the call for him making the call every single time. I'm not bothered by the call in the slightest (other than the fact he won) In fact in this situation i welcome it, even with me being a slight dog.
Thank you!
Posted Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:42 pm GMT by Geno
| TheSalche wrote: | Calm down there bluef0x ...
BTW: I just ran the numbers through SnGPT ... even with a TIGHT calling range of TT+,AQs+,AKo ... its +.3% and only goes down the looser the calling range. |
Pots and kettles Mr Pink Polo Shirt! I thought when we got rid of that tard we'd hear the last of calling ranges and all that +0.5% junk 
Posted Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:53 am GMT by BeerWench13
| Quote: | | i would gladly exchange the knowledge of why he made the call for him making the call every single time. |
Good Question. I was a psych major, but I can't answer that one. I saw a similar hand last night in the hubby's SNG. Hubby's on the button with AKs, pushes (he's chip leader at this point) and gets called by the guy who's 2nd in chips with QJo. The hubby asked me the exact same question that you've asked even though he took down the pot. I had no answer for him nor have I one for you. What really bites is when they make that kind of call, as in your case, and win. I bet they think they made the play of a lifetime. The good thing is that if you're in that situation with that player again, he'll make that same call and pay you off.
Posted Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:55 am GMT by TheSalche
| Geno wrote: | | TheSalche wrote: | Calm down there bluef0x ...
BTW: I just ran the numbers through SnGPT ... even with a TIGHT calling range of TT+,AQs+,AKo ... its +.3% and only goes down the looser the calling range. |
Pots and kettles Mr Pink Polo Shirt! I thought when we got rid of that tard we'd hear the last of calling ranges and all that +0.5% junk |
Lex,
As much of a tard as f0x was when he was being rude, he had good points. EV calculations for pushes is pretty important in low limit SnGs.
Even if you don't use EV, use the idea of ICM where the # of chips you have is proportional to how much money of the prize pool you'd win if it was split right there. With the blinds Webby moves his chips from 5400 to 5500, less than a 2% increase. Big deal. This doesn't add enough chips to justify this move even when your opponent is very tight.
-Pink Polo Guy
Posted Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:30 pm GMT by TxShadow
He was short on chips and it's a low limit online SNG. People just get tired/bored and want to either give themselves a good shot at winning or bust out and start up another one. That aside, it was a stupid play on his part.
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