Tried something different... Thoughts plz |
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Posted Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:32 pm GMT by adam
Background:
We're about 15 or so hands into a $30 sng. The table seems fairly passive, with lots of pf limping and ive seen ace rag shown down three or four times already.
I've had a couple of strong hands already (AK, TT) which i've played aggressivly and have picked up the pot with a flop bet both times. Im yet to showndown a hand.
The Hand:
http://www.pokerhand.org/?205594
So I thought i'd get a little creative, and check my preflop option with what was probably the best hand. Why? I figured i could bleed an ace-rag limper for a fair few chips, if i completely miss its an easy muck, and of course, deception & disguise  .
Flop:
A near perfect flop for me, no real draws and im 90% certain i have a lock, and im as certain no-one has me on a strong hand. I thought about check raising (and would've if i had more than one opponent) but opted to call, keep my disguise and get more chips in on the turn.
Turn:
The ten was a little scarey, i read him as AJ-A8 so it couldve made him 2pair, i certainaly dont have him on AK or AQ. His bet was weaker this time. Either he didnt like his hand so much, or he just caught a monster. I decide i have to raise and define my hand (im not at all worried by AK or the flush draw, but 66 and AT are possibilities). Great, a weak call, im now 99% sure im ahead, probably to a weak ace.
River:
Im not worried by the king (who bets 2nd pair into a field of 5 on the flop?) so im looking to sell my hand for whatever i think i can get. 350 seemed a good number... All in?!!?! Well I have to trust my read, if hes decived me better than me him then fair play, but i know i have been deceiving him. He probably has me on a weak ace too and figures to split or win with an aggressive river bet. I figure the only hand im losing to (realisticly) is 66.
So, critique please. Scan and Code have already told me how badly i played it in IRC. I think i played it pretty well, mixed it up, fooled my opponent, took all his chips  .
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Posted Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:05 pm GMT by MJJ
First, I think AQo is a weak hand i fit is slow played... It needs to hit part of the flop most of the time or you are in trouble w/out having bet to narrow the field.-
With 5 to see the flop, a KQ, KJ, J10, or K 10 seems possible
When you turn the possible str8, I would be a little scared (for 2/3 pot bet most of these hands would see the turn)
When the 2nd K hits I would be really worried
Not trying to be harsh, just think you will lose big more often then you will get paid by this play (although it worked this time)
Posted Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:37 pm GMT by adam
| MJJ wrote: | | First, I think AQo is a weak hand i fit is slow played... It needs to hit part of the flop most of the time or you are in trouble w/out having bet to narrow the field. |
AQ, like AK, is a drawing hand which I personally feel plays better vs a large field. I certainly am not 'slow playing' in the sense that a rookie would slowplay aces. Im looking to catch for free against a dominated hand or get out at little/no expense. Sure i can raise here but its early and im in bad position. If i miss i either bet out with ace high - which i realy dont like at all, especially vs more than 1 opponent, or effectivly give up the pot. Also im likely to get no action when i hit because i've pushed weaker hands away. Of course i can pickup the blinds with a large bet (asuming someone hasn't limped with a monster, or decided im stealing and pushes with their PP). I would usualy raise in this spot (vs a tighter table) but on this occasion i felt this was a valid and profitable option.
| MJJ wrote: | With 5 to see the flop, a KQ, KJ, J10, or K 10 seems possible
When you turn the possible str8, I would be a little scared (for 2/3 pot bet most of these hands would see the turn) |
I cant see anyone betting into 5 players with 2nd pair or a gunshot. Kx mightve been out there but the pot sized flop bet did for that. I think you have missread the hand a little here as i was the only caller. Im realy not worried about these hands at all (raising with 2nd pair would be bad enough, but with a gunshot? not likely).
| MJJ wrote: |
When the 2nd K hits I would be really worried |
Read above.
Posted Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:02 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| Quote: | | AQ, like AK, is a drawing hand which I personally feel plays better vs a large field. |
No no no no... this is not true at all. Especially if they are off-suit hands, AK and AQ play much better against a SMALL field. Most of the time that AK and AQ win, they do so by making one pair and having it hold up, which is not conducive to a large field.
Posted Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:09 pm GMT by CodeNull
err, I raise with second pair on that board almost every time if I am on the button and it is limped to me, and I bet again on the turn to try and semibluff, and depending on how weak play has been up till that point, I might call a check raise, then, when I hit trips on the river, and get bet into, I am most often shoving everything I have in, but again, I play far too aggressive generally. I am just looking at it from the other perspective, I still say you are going to lose huge on this hand more often than not playing it that way.
Posted Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:20 pm GMT by JpForum
You should have raised pre-flop just to narrow the field, diamond cutter is right, A-q / A-k is better against a smaller field.
Posted Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:27 pm GMT by MJJ
| adam wrote: | | MJJ wrote: | | First, I think AQo is a weak hand i fit is slow played... It needs to hit part of the flop most of the time or you are in trouble w/out having bet to narrow the field. |
AQ, like AK, is a drawing hand which I personally feel plays better vs a large field. I certainly am not 'slow playing' in the sense that a rookie would slowplay aces. Im looking to catch for free against a dominated hand or get out at little/no expense. Sure i can raise here but its early and im in bad position. If i miss i either bet out with ace high - which i realy dont like at all, especially vs more than 1 opponent, or effectivly give up the pot. Also im likely to get no action when i hit because i've pushed weaker hands away. Of course i can pickup the blinds with a large bet (asuming someone hasn't limped with a monster, or decided im stealing and pushes with their PP). I would usualy raise in this spot (vs a tighter table) but on this occasion i felt this was a valid and profitable option.
| MJJ wrote: | With 5 to see the flop, a KQ, KJ, J10, or K 10 seems possible
When you turn the possible str8, I would be a little scared (for 2/3 pot bet most of these hands would see the turn) |
I cant see anyone betting into 5 players with 2nd pair or a gunshot. Kx mightve been out there but the pot sized flop bet did for that. I think you have missread the hand a little here as i was the only caller. Im realy not worried about these hands at all (raising with 2nd pair would be bad enough, but with a gunshot? not likely).
| MJJ wrote: |
When the 2nd K hits I would be really worried |
Read above. |
it's your money adam, just giving my opinion. If you want to limp w/ AQo vs 5 people it is your right to do so....
Posted Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:36 pm GMT by Johny
| Quote: | | it's your money adam, just giving my opinion. If you want to limp w/ AQo vs 5 people it is your right to do so.... |
He was in the bb, so he checked being out of position with a marginal hand. I guess with that many limpers he could have raised, but I don't see the point.
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:43 am GMT by tame_deuces
The point of the play is deception. That means we try another tactic than the 'tried-and-tested' believing that we will earn more chips/money by doing so because our opponent will put us on another hand than we have. Critizising the play with some 'you should have raised...etc. etc.' isn't necessary because my guess is hero is well aware of these tactics!
The play also depends on our opponents and how they play. As justificication for his play hero has observed several limped A-rag hands. When he holds his AQo he takes a gamble on two IFs..IF someone holds an ace and IF one of the two remaining aces hit, he may earn a big chunk of chips, and that the inherent dangers in this play is less that the possible reward of the play.
Well, in my book those two ifs are actually quite big ones, I don't think the correct factors will click into place often enough, lessening the value of the play somewhat.
I don't think the hand is badly played at all, because there is a reason for every move here and it is not passiveness or uncertainty about your hand. I think the play is more an example of 'one thing leading to another'. Actually, I think the hand is well played.
But I don't think I'm to fond of the _plan_ behind the hand, mainly because someone else holding a weak ace and a third ace flopping is are big ifs for your hand.
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:58 am GMT by UrAteUp
It's hard to say if this hand was played right or wrong because it was a winner. Sometimes it is right to limp with a possible monster hand. Often times it isn't. Each individual circumstance has to be evaluated as a whole and not so much of this is the right way or only way you should play a hand. That's my opinion on it.
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:22 am GMT by BeerWench13
| Quote: | | He was in the bb, so he checked being out of position with a marginal hand. I guess with that many limpers he should have raised, but I don't see the point. |
Just what I was thinking. AQ is so overrated. If he misses the flop, it's an easy fold with the minimal amount invested. If he hits, he can get paid. I like the play.
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:15 pm GMT by adam
| tame_deuces wrote: | The point of the play is deception. That means we try another tactic than the 'tried-and-tested' believing that we will earn more chips/money by doing so because our opponent will put us on another hand than we have.
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Spot on.
| tame_deuces wrote: |
But I don't think I'm to fond of the _plan_ behind the hand, mainly because someone else holding a weak ace and a third ace flopping is are big ifs for your hand. |
This is true, but there is another likely and profitable outcome (queen high flop vs a weaker queen). Im not saying this was the most +EV play, infact it may not be +EV at all. But at this stage in a sng im not looking to commit alot of chips with anything less than AK preflop, especially out of position. To get heads up (or take the pot) i think i have to bet 150-200 here, which still leaves me in bad position in a large pot with a weak hand (which is never a good spot to be in). Also im not too fond of AQ .
Of course the huge risk in this play is that i catch my ace or queen, but am 2nd best to 2 pair+. I was willing to take that risk on this occasion, and luckily it played out well. I think I am a good enough player to get away from the hand in this situation.
I do feel that my turn check-raise was too small, i should've made it around 350 (i think my primary concern here was to gain infomation and also limit my commitment). If he had came over the top on the turn I would have had to seriously consider folding.
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