Would like to get advice, starting hands, 0.25/0.50 |
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Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:54 am GMT by MoZ
Hi Guys,
I would like to get some advice on the starting hands. I play Limit Holdem, 0,25 / 0.50
Because the SB and the BB are so low, i have the feeling everybody wants to see the flop. Me included. I limp in on almost every hand, in general i only fold hands like 7-2o.
The idea behind this is that when you really hit a flop well, you can make a big pot out of it. But what do you guys advice on these low blinds? Be tight and aggressive pre flop? Should i pick my hand better?
Thanks in advice.
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Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:29 am GMT by Jernej Zorec
play tight is the best advice i can ive , and watch your position
when a lot of peopl eplay loose and bad u want to play good hands and punish them, and not throw money away with bad cards like they do.
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:13 am GMT by MoZ
Thanks for the fast reply.
But how should i play tight. does this mean folding K7 off suit? for example?
My main question is, when there is no re-raise, pre flop, when to call, (on which hands) when playing 0,25 / 0,50 and 0,50 / 1,00
there is no particular answer to this, i understand. this depends on the table etc, but any general advice?
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:26 am GMT by mikenike
yea. agreed with the previous posts. and if you feel you get bored or don't have the patience to wait for another hand to happen try multi tabling with 1 or 2 more.
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:47 am GMT by MoZ
but still, can anybody tell me what kind of hands i should call on, when plaing tight on .25 / .50?
More importantly, which hands should i lay down?
My feeling (that's true, my opinion till this point is only based on my feeling) is that i want to see almost every flop and then be aggressive as soon as i have something, otherwise, i'm outta there. However, after playing a couple of hands the result is like 50-50...
so i figured i should play a bit tighter, pre flop, but now i would like to know, which kind of hands i should lay down, when i'm not @ sb or bb playing these low blinds....
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edit: i forgot to mention that i play shorthanded texas holdem. max 6 players
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:30 am GMT by Jernej Zorec
ok hands like K7 offsuit u should practicly always lay down
in fact when it comes to offsuit hands, lay them down except they are high cards like AK AQ etc,
in last positions when u are on the button or 1 to the right of button u can play hands like maybe AT KJ KQ
u can take a look at starting hands chart on this site
http://abdul-jalib-poker-strategy.blogspot.com/1999/05/holdem-preflop-strategy-according-to.html
it is also a very good read for limit play
i know it might sound complicated, but the starting hands chart there is very good
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:37 am GMT by Jernej Zorec
ii see u said 6 handed, well agression is good there, although i'm no expert there, but they way to play 6 handed is still tight,
just look at that chart as if u are always in last spots only, in fact u could be even a bit more tight
i'm sure some some of those who play limit 6max here can guide in the right direction better than i cna since i'm not playing 6 max yet
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:56 am GMT by MoZ
thanks guys.
you guys don't think there is a difference between playing 0.25 / 0.50 and for example 2 / 4? when it comes to calling pre flop that is?
and another question, regarding this topic:
When i play so less hands, this will be noticed by other players i think. When i call at some point, they just _know_ i have something in my hand and will be handle my raise with loads of respect. at least, that s the way i see it at this point.
considering this, the pot that i'm going for is not going to be that huge, because the players will fold when i actually go for it.
Am i totally wrong or any word of advice for me?
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:03 am GMT by Jernej Zorec
i dont think u should ever call at 2/4 at least thats why my mentor says 
its basicly fold or raise , u only call in very specific situations
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:44 am GMT by MoZ
ok, but back on topic, with 0.25 / 0.50 or 0.50 / 1.
i only call or raise with the hands from that website, at least, that's what i make of this thread?
and if that's the right thing to do, why doesn't everybody play this way?
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:22 am GMT by Jernej Zorec
i seriously dont know, but as long as they dont u cna make easy money
this site is more into 10 handed play though, but there is a lot of info online about 6 max also if u look around,
best thing on forum is if u post hands where u are not sure about the play
regardless of the outcome, in fact u will get best insight into the play if u post the hand but leave out the results
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:52 am GMT by MoZ
yeah i know
thanks for the help
i'm just a bit scared of how to play preflop when playing these low stakes. hmm.
what is a 'normal' percentage of flops that you see?
i heared 20%? Is this right?
that means folding 4 of the 5 hands. at the moment i'm playing all 5 hands.... it's just 25c to see the flop, who cares? but that's probably not right then?
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:40 am GMT by Soup_dog
| MoZ wrote: | | that means folding 4 of the 5 hands. at the moment i'm playing all 5 hands.... it's just 25c to see the flop, who cares? but that's probably not right then? |
If your not interested in making money, then sure calling every hand is fine. If you do want to make money, tighten up... a lot.
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:33 am GMT by supafrey
Grawr. You need to have a foundation of basic fixed limit theory if you want to succeed. Even playing at .5/1 you're not going to be making money by playing K7 very often. While your "feeling" of big multiway pots is correct in some ways (i.e. you should play slightly looser, and a different group of hands than just the regular super tight play) your hand selection STILL needs to be much tighter.
Search on these forums for anything regarding how to play "schools of fish" or "many limpers" or "passive game" and you'll get some really good info on multi-way pots, for the most part. Sticking to strong hands IN POSITION (key in big pots) and adding in suited connectors, Ace-anything suited and suited gap connectors is still PLENTY loose enough to be making money. I realize you think that if you "hit" with K7 you're going to get paid off, but that's simply not the case. Slowly but surely you're bleeding money.
Oh, and there's many reasons why "people" don't just read a hand chart and suddenly start playing "better". =P
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:44 pm GMT by MoZ
Thanks again. great info. i appreciate it.
I read on, my game will improve. i'm surely going to tighten up.
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edit: a key word is multi-way pot in the previous post. In the glossary on the left i can't find the word, what exactly does it mean? Multiple players in the pot or?
Thanks
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:08 pm GMT by Soup_dog
I think he means a pot where there are more than two players involved. Like when you have 4 or five limpers who see the flop. When you have many players in a pot your drawing hands get more value but your strong preflop hands lose some strength.
In other words, if you have a good drawing hand preflop, like suited connectors in late position, you want to have a number of players in the pot. On the other hand, if you have something like pocket queens it is in your best interest to try and get rid of some of the other players preflop by raising.
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:21 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
If the game is pretty loose (5+ players see every flop), I'd probably give the following guidelines. These are VERY broad recommendations, not hard and fast rules.
Early position:
Play: AA - TT, 99, AKs, AQs, AJs, KQs, AKo, AQo
Raise: AA - TT, AKs, AKo, AQs
Middle Position:
Play: All EP hands plus 88-22 (if at least 4-5 players will play), ATs, KJs, KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, KQ, KJ, A9s, A8s, T9s, AJ
Raise: AA - 99, any hand you would raise from EP, and ATs, KQs, AJs, KJs
Late Position:
Play: All previous hands plus 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, J9s, T8s, AXs (any suited ace), AT, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JT
Raise: Any hand you would raise from MP plus 88 if at least 3 players have entered. Also, if no one has entered, raise with any two cards ten or higher.
Posted Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:03 pm GMT by supafrey
yeah diamond has a pretty decent example.
Posted Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:45 pm GMT by lwestatbus
You must, must, must find Small Stakes Hold'em by Sklansky, Miller, and Malmuth. An absolutely great reference. It will give you a guide for what hands to play under what circumstances (tight table, loose table, early position, late position, big blind, small blind, etc.) as you have been asking for but it also tells you why this is so. You made a couple of comments in your posts that indicate you understand some of the important differences in number of callers, etc., and this book will give you a great foundation for more scientifically adjusting your play.
Good luck.
Posted Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:32 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| lwestatbus wrote: | | You must, must, must find Small Stakes Hold'em by Sklansky, Miller, and Malmuth. ...it also tells you why this is so. |
I agree. I recently started reading this book. SSHE doesn't teach you how to play like a good player. It teaches you how to think like a good player. Thinking like a good player what will make you better.
I'd strongly recommend the book.
Posted Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:33 pm GMT by MoZ
I ordered it immediatly.
Thanks guys, in about 5 days it will arive here
Posted Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:03 am GMT by nightguard
Hi
I'm a beginner of sorts myself. I have a relative who plays all the time on higher stakes. He's given me a lot of advice to play low limits. For a start I have a starting hands chart (Hilger) and a pot odds chart. To win , he says, I have to keep to it. That means throwing hands like KJo in early position sometimes. It's frustrating at times because I wait for ages for decent cards only to be beat by somebody holding something like 53s on the river played because they are suited. He also says there are bad players at the higher limits and anyone that can get the basics right can win there. I'm nowhere near that level. Just .50/1$ at the moment but I believe I have got my preflop play right and just need to improve post-flop play. I am winning at the moment but not a great amount. I have also got a programme called Poker Tracker which analysis your hands. Remember when other players play bad we win. The starting cards in the lists win the greater pecentage of the time. Just be patient and you will get there.
Just saw the post about the book. Go it off of my brother for Xmas. Very helpful. Hard going in parts but I shall read it again so to understand it better.
Personally I don't play on a table with less than 8 players. Below 7 the luck factor has a bigger part to play. I don't play tounaments either at the moment or Pot and no limit.
I did play a sit and go touno a few weeks ago. Never turned out how I thought. I sat down and was surprised when I was dealt 4 hole cards. It turned out it was OMaha. I have no idea how to play and another player in the chat also thought it was Holdem. I came second though. I just played roughly the same but I must admit the cards hit for me. Think I got 40$. Not bad considering I didn't know what I was doing. :D .
Posted Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:20 pm GMT by supafrey
| Quote: |
Personally I don't play on a table with less than 8 players. Below 7 the luck factor has a bigger part to play. |
This is stupid.
Posted Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:27 pm GMT by Peteus
Here's the reason why it is "stupid"..
It's not luck factor..Its the fact that hands you wouldn't normally play with 10 people are now a bit stronger since there are less players..(which = less chance someone has a better hand)
Posted Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:33 am GMT by nightguard
I did say I was virtually a beginner. :D If there are less players the range of hands that can beat you must increase as well because the other players are also playing hands they wouldn't normally. So I assume you are guessing more. I was advised not to play in tables with less than 8 players and I just assumed luck maybe had something to do with the reason.
Posted Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:59 am GMT by Muck
It’s okay nightguard I can understand where your perception of shorter handed games involving more luck comes from.
You see people betting “poor” hands aggressively and think this table is just a crap shoot. But it’s really just how your play needs to adjust to allow for the increased speed of the blinds and reduced competition.
Posted Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:32 pm GMT by suitedaces84
It's important to understand what luck is and one makes a game one of luck. Both full ring games or short games are games of luck to some extent. This luck factor is proportional to the standard deviation, say in BB/100, of the game. Short games will yield a higher standard deviation than full games. So in that sense short games do involve more luck than full games.
Of course all this counts is the amount of luck per 100 hands. If you play a different number of hands the amount of luck will change. Obviously the more you play the less luck there is involved.
For example if you were a decent golfer there is a reasonable chance you would beat Tiger Woods on a single hole of golf. Tiger would still be the favorite, but it's very possible that you would win. So a single hole of golf involes a lot of luck. If you played 9 holes against him you'd almost certainly lose. If you played 72 holes agaisnt you'd have no chance. 72 holes involves very little luck.
The same applies to poker. If you played a player who was much better than you at the game you were playing you'd have a very good chance of winning over the course of 20 hands--again he'd still be the favorite. You'd have a decent chance over the course of 2,000 hands. However, over the course of 200,000 hands you'd have virtually no chance, I'll call this chance at winning 'x'.
Now let's say you played the same player at a different poker game that he was also much better than you at; except the second game involves much more luck. The only difference is you'd have to play more hands to have the same chance at losing. To have your chances of winning be reduced to 'x' you may have to play 400,000 hands instead of 200,000.
To summarize: yes short handed play involves more luck. But that's no reason to avoid it. It's still very beatable. It just involves more varience. As you move up in stakes fewer players see a flop. You'll have to deal with way more blind battles. Being able to win HU and 3-handed "crapshoots" becomes more and more important. You may be surprised at how much your full ring game will improve if you get better at short handed play.
But I see your point. I'm not too keen on playing with less than 8 either.
Posted Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:49 pm GMT by CanadaPOKER
MY NL Cash game guideline
Early Pos'n (AGGRESSIVE GAME)
RAISE - QQ-AA, AKs
CALL - 77-JJ, AK, AQ or Js, 67s, 78s
Early Pos'n (PASSIVE GAME)
RAISE TT-AA, AK, AQs
CALL 22-99, AxS, KQs, AQ, AJ, 67s, 78s
Middle Pos'n (AGGRESSIVE GAME - No One in)
RAISE 99-AA, AK, AQs
CALL 22-88, AQ, Ax(s), AJ, AT, 56s, 67s, 78s, 89s, 8Ts, TJs
MIDDLE Pos'n (PASSIVE GAME - No One In)
RAISE 66-AA, AK, AQ, AJs
CALL 22-55, Ax (s), AJ, AT, A9, the same suited connectors
Middle Pos'n (AGGRESSIVE GAME - 1 3x raise)
RE-Raise QQ-AA, AKs
CALL 77-JJ, AQ-Js, AK, 67s, 78s
Middle Pos'n (PASSIVE GAME - 1 3x raise)
RE-Raise KK-AA, AKs
call 22-QQ, Ax suited, AK, 67s, 78s
Remember these are just basic factors. A lot may depend on the players I know on the table, my table image, my opponents images along with chip counts on what players have, who maybe on tilt and many factors. For an advanced player there is no exact guideline as sometimes in an aggressive hand I would fold some hands I would normally call, and maybe raise instead of calling or vice versa. The odd time to mix it up I may smooth call AA in 1st pos'n (it has to be an aggressive table + full table) as it would be a call/raise if you get techincal. I need any size raise for the preflop action to get back to me, where it's Re-Raise or call All-in.
Late position from cutoff seat to the blinds is a lot more complicated. You have to use your position to your advantage and because I am so good at playing marginal hands (especially in position) then I can get away with playing hands like 67s. The main reason I play those two main suited connectors which are 67 and 78 suited are because If i know my opponents has hands like the following (AA, KK, QQ, AK) then I can make a lot of money in the longterm by playing those hands. No one expects you to have that hand when the flop comes 882. the overpair would say their cards are good and they are in fact down to 2 outs. Same thing with 87A. If i have 78s and i flop bottom two pair, then yes i could be up against AA, but it is rare and i would expect KK or AK to be against and I would try and take the pot down on the flop and if i have to get all my chips in where i should win 65% of the time.
I recommend for beginners is this
EP (AA, KK, QQ, AKs)
MP (99-AA, AK, AKs, AQs)
LP (55-AA, AK, AQ, AJs)
You won't be playing many hands but mathimatically you should stay up.
As far as playing blinds. It's advanced for me, but im an advanced player.
Posted Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:12 pm GMT by tame_deuces
The easiest way to adjust to low stakes 6-max is to play like in full ring, but what is the hands you raise with from MP in full ring is now the hands you raise with from UTG etc. Basically just increase it all a step. For playing against other people's handranges, adjust to the fact that most of them play junk constantly, raise anything you think has an edge versus your opponent preflop, isolation of people playing junk is a very profitable thing to do in all types of hold'em, and in 6-max you can do it _alot_.
And postflop you adjust for the fact that players are crappier and people bluff far too much.
There are ofcourse a ton of more nuisances than this, but since most of the people who play low stakes 6-max are truly horrible, this should work for most. As for bluffing, the favourite pasttime of 50% of all low stakes 6-max players known to mankind: Bluff as much as you can get away with, and as always remember to never bluff the unbluffables.
Posted Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:45 pm GMT by supafrey
| Quote: | | As far as playing blinds. It's advanced for me, but im an advanced player. |
oh brother.
Posted Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:01 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| supafrey wrote: | | Quote: | | As far as playing blinds. It's advanced for me, but im an advanced player. |
oh brother. |
I wonder how many times that guy has read Hellmuth's book.
Posted Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:10 pm GMT by nightguard
suitedaces you sound like my brother. :D That is basically what he said. I think he meatn for me at my stage it would be better to steer clear of low handed tables because of the adjustment needed. He believes that any intelligent person can make a profit with online Holdem as long as they stick to the basic poker strategy outlined in many books. But it can be boring which is why there are so many poor players. They do not have the patience to fold hand after hand. I've played around 2000 hands since late Dec last year on Party Poker and I've been told how good I am won't show until I've played many more. But i'm showing a small profit at .50/1$. Beginners I had a slump for a day or two when every pot I saw virtually I got beat and It wasn't that many..
Right I'm back to the tables now.
Posted Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:50 pm GMT by MoZ
Hi guys
Thanks for making this such an interesting topic.
As i said, i have the book in my possession. I'm still reading it, but it's all clear till now.
However, i'm in a doubt. You guys, and everybody, and the book, is telling me: play tight, play tight play tight BECAUSE everybody at small stakes are playing so loose.
Now, i spend a whole day looking at small stakes (0.50 / 1.00) limit texas holdem short handed, and serious, the players after the flop (with 6 pre flop) are on average 3 or something. That's not what i call loose, and i think that's not what the book is telling me that's loose. and i think you guys think 3 players on average after the flop is loose. Is it?
so in addition, i'm not so sure anymore the information in the book is up to date, lol, i mean, everybody seems to play tight. not everybody, but the most people do.
so the solution: where can i find loose players? i mean, 6 players after the flop would be nice  or am i totally wrong here?
Posted Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:53 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Don't worry about if the other players are playing loose or tight. Worry more about how your playing and the cards your entering a pot with. If your playing tight you will only enter the pot with hands that fall within the top 10-15 starting hands of poker. Watch the other players and take notes when possible on what they play as a starting hand. This will answer your question as to if they are playing loose or tight.
Posted Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:50 am GMT by MoZ
Thanks, i hope it will work out.
It's a pretty cool and interesting book by the way.
Posted Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:35 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
If you're playing 6-handed instead of 9- or 10-handed, the dynamics of the game will be very different. Now, the emphasis becomes a high-card game, not a suited-connector game.
Posted Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:54 am GMT by MoZ
I'm also worried a bit about that.
The book is talking about 9 handed loose games.
i play shorthanded.
the 9 handed hands that i watch are very very tight. perhaps 2 or 3 players after the flop, everybody plays the way that is indicated by everybody.
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