Posted Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:22 pm GMT by Vahns
Alot of my friends tell me that pocket 2s are just as good as AK. i dont get how come pocket duces are that good. i always fold them any call. how do u guys play ur pocket duces?
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Posted Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:25 pm GMT by supafrey
It depends?
lol. what game? What stakes? how many players? 
Posted Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:34 pm GMT by tame_deuces
It is a very common misconception. Your friends has mistakenly taken this fact:
1.) 22 coinflips AK and is sometimes a very slight favourite to win against it.
And mistaken it for this fact:
2.) 22 is just as good as AK.
Fact number one is true, fact number 2 is not.
Why is this?
Because AK is a huge favourite over a very large amount of hands that 22 is only 50% to win against, and because AK coinflips all pocket pairs below KK, whereas 22 is an 20:80 underdog against these hands.
So what is the end conclusion?
AK is a much better hand than 22, but if you are all-in preflop and can chose between these two hands, you should usually chose 22 (sometimes, depending on suits AK can be the favourite)
However, if you are to go all in against an _unknown_ hand, AK is a much better choice, since you rarely know the exact hand of your opponent, AK is always the logical choice for which hand you want.
22 sucks btw, is hardly even a +EV hand from most positions. Folding it will rarely be a big mistake.
Posted Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:57 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| tame_deuces wrote: | | AK is a much better hand than 22, but if you are all-in preflop and can chose between these two hands, you should usually chose 22 (sometimes, depending on suits AK can be the favourite) |
Don't remind me of this thread. Ciso B and his other personalities somehow got a three page thread about 'do you prefer being a very small favorite or very small dog when all your money is in the pot'? And for the record I prefer being a very small favorite.
| tame_deuces wrote: | | However, if you are to go all in against an _unknown_ hand, AK is a much better choice, since you rarely know the exact hand of your opponent, AK is always the logical choice for which hand you want. |
Exactly. To put it mathematically AKs is a 67% favorite vs a random hand. AKo is a 65.3% favorite vs a random hand. 22 is a 50.3% favorite.
Of course preflop equity is not a perfect measure of a starting hand. One also has to consider how it plays postflop. Some hands are easier to play than others.
| tame_deuces wrote: | | 22 sucks btw, is hardly even a +EV hand from most positions. Folding it will rarely be a big mistake. |
Depends upon whether it's FL or NL. In FL calling from EP is a mistake unless the game is loose and passive or several players have already limped in. Generally being the first to enter a pot with a small pocket pair is wrong in FL. In NL it's completely different. In a 100bb deep game you easily have the implied odds to chase a set as long as you don't have to put too much in preflop.
Posted Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:00 pm GMT by TheSalche
Some guy in an $11 Party Poker Sit-n-Go told me to play pocket twos hard, i.e. make 10xBB raises with them
What an idiot.
Posted Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:06 pm GMT by zinn0
| TheSalche wrote: | Some guy in an $11 Party Poker Sit-n-Go told me to play pocket twos hard, i.e. make 10xBB raises with them
What an idiot. |
I see this a lot anymore over at stars. Superdonk raises preflop. More often than not, it turns out to be 22, 33, 44...
Posted Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:39 pm GMT by Geno
Fold pre-flop.
Posted Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:47 pm GMT by zinn0
| Geno wrote: | | Fold pre-flop. |
That is actually pretty sound advice.
Posted Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:44 pm GMT by nightguard
If I had AA and you werte playing against me I'd say play 22. But then again knowing my luck the flop would come 22A. :D
Posted Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:18 am GMT by Tadzio
| Vahns wrote: | | Alot of my friends tell me that pocket 2s are just as good as AK. i dont get how come pocket duces are that good. i always fold them any call. how do u guys play ur pocket duces? |
I think your friends got this by misreading an anecdote Doyle Brunson shared in Super System. Doyle had a standing bet with someone that his 22 would beat their AK anytime they wanted to play. According to his anecdote, he won a lot of money off them. I don't remember if he said whether the AK was suited.
Anyway, heads-up I'll play 22 for a raise/re-raise pre-flop. It's not a hand I'll go all-in with unless either I or my opponent is short-stacked, but I like playing any pocket pair lower than Qs like I'd play an AK AQ and similar power-drawing-hands-- and 2s are no exception to this. This has many benefits: 1) they could fold, 2) whether they call or raise gives you some idea of their hand strength, 3) it sets up a continuation bet on the flop if rags hit which allows you to refine what your opponent could have or force them to fold.
For example, let's say your opponent has A3s and is in the BB... this is a hand that'll call you PF, but if the flop is something like J, 8, 3 he'll probably dump his hand facing your continuation bet, and you get to win with the worst hand. It's also a really simple thing to let go of pocket 2s if 1) your opponent doesn't fold to your PF and/or flop bets, 2) comes over the top of your bets, or 3) the flop has a couple face cards, a pair and/or no 2s. The reason that you gotta be careful of a paired board is that it's very easy for a paired board to beat a low pocket pair.... Getting out-kickered when you started with a PP sucks royal donkey balls (it's happened to me more than a couple of times  ).
3 handed I'm careful about playing pocket 2s... but I play them. Usually for a raise depending on my position and opponents' play.
4+ handed and I'll dump pocket 2s if I can't limp into the pot-- only raising if it's folded around to me and I'm SB or button.
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