Clarification needed about the "Low" in any low/H- |
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Posted Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:40 am GMT by Cyberhwk
First I would like to say that I just got home from my first ever Omaha Hi-Low Split game. I'm hooked already. :D But I'm just starting to look into it.
At the risk of starting another "BEST FIVE CARDS" endless cycle of inattention, I'm a little confused about "WORST FIVE CARDS." So it's the highest card of the five, if that ties, then you go to the second highest and so on?
Here are a couple of scenerios I'm curious about who wins...
Stud H/L:
1.) A2348
2.) 34567
Omaha 8:
1.) A2xx
2.) 34xx
Board: A2345
Split low? Are pairs ignored to?
Any other weird low situations I should watch out for?
Also, what are some good Omaha8 or Stud 7 H/L books out there? FWIW, I've read Sklansky, Lee Jones, Part of Harrington, and will be getting into Theory of Poker here soon hopefully.
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Posted Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:02 am GMT by Jernej Zorec
in first examample 2nd hands wins
to get the best low just write from high to low card and smallest number wins
so u have
84321 and 76543
and yes in 2nd exapple its a split,
also u can't have a pair for low, so 7622A is not a low hand
for books i think Ray Zee from 2+2 has a very good Hi/Lo split games book
for omaha there is How To Win At Omaha Hgh-Low by Michael Cappelletti you can also look at his articles on cardplayer
Posted Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:56 am GMT by Soup_dog
I always have a problem with this too. They have some that are just H/L, while there is this other thing called Omaha 8 where the low is something different I think. Sometimes str8's count sometimes they don't. I can never keep it straight. Can anyone explain what the different variations are?
Posted Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:20 pm GMT by galderon
When straights and flushes count, it's called deuce-to-seven. Aces are high.
When they don't, it's called ace-to-five. Aces are low.
In low, the hand is ranked by the highest card, with the lowest highest-card being the winner. If the highest card is tied, you look at the next highest, etc. Hands are often referred to only by their highest card. The hand 87542 can be called an "8".
The "8" in omaha-8 refers to the fact that you need a hand of "8" or better (lower) to even qualify. So the worst possible qualifying low hand is 87654.
Edit:
Fixed typo! It's deuce! Not duece!
Posted Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:28 pm GMT by Soup_dog
| galderon wrote: | When straights and flushes count, it's called duece-to-seven. Aces are high.
When they don't, it's called ace-to-five. Aces are low.
In low, the hand is ranked by the highest card, with the lowest highest-card being the winner. If the highest card is tied, you look at the next highest, etc. Hands are often referred to only by their highest card. The hand 87542 can be called an "8".
The "8" in omaha-8 refers to the fact that you need a hand of "8" or better (lower) to even qualify. So the worst possible qualifying low hand is 87653. |
Thanks!
Posted Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:50 pm GMT by galderon
| galderon wrote: | | The "8" in omaha-8 refers to the fact that you need a hand of "8" or better (lower) to even qualify. So the worst possible qualifying low hand is 87653. |
I have to correct myself.
The worst qualifying hand is 87654 in ace-to-five, which I believe is how omaha-8 is played normally.
The worst qualifying hand in deuce-to-seven eights-or-better is 87653.
Posted Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:11 pm GMT by snoogins47
| Soup_dog wrote: | | I always have a problem with this too. They have some that are just H/L, while there is this other thing called Omaha 8 where the low is something different I think. Sometimes str8's count sometimes they don't. I can never keep it straight. Can anyone explain what the different variations are? |
You will probably never in your life run into a *split pot* game that has straights and flushes count against you for low, nor one where the ace doesn't swing both ways (lowest possible card for low, highest for high)
I'll try to elaborate here:
Lowball rules:
Deuce-to-Seven, 2-7, Kansas City: This is the most 'obvious' lowball game. In essence, the worst high poker hand wins. In this ranking system, straights and flushes are HIGH hands... they can thoretically win, but if you have a straight, you're only going to beat a higher straight, a flush, etc. The ace counts as high, as if you're playing high poker.
Therefore, the best hand is 23457 with no flush.
Ace to Five, or sometimes California lowball: Straights and flushes don't count against you, and more importantly, the Ace is the lowest card in the deck. Always.
This means the best hand is A2345, suits don't matter. A pair of aces beats a pair of kings, queens, etc. Aces are LOW!
Low hands are, as mentioned, ranked by the highest card (until you're talking pairs or anything, in which case, just think backwards from high poker, the worst hand wins) and it goes on down kicker to kicker. The only split pots are when all five cards are of identical rank.
Low hands are referred to by their high card as well, and often down a card or two as well, in a simple format.
To say "I have an 8" or "That's an 8" is to say that the highest card in your 5-card hand is an 8; it's short for "8-high," essentially.
If that's not telling enough, it will go to two places.... "I have an 8-6 or eight-six" would mean that the highest card in my hand is an 8, and the second highest is a 6.
Sometimes when we don't talk about specifics, we'll say things like "I got dealt a rough 8" or a "smooth 8." Rough and smooth refer to the quality of the hand, essentially. A "rough 8" is a poor 8, or, an 8 with the other cards being fairly high: it loses to a lot of better '8's.
A "smooth 8" is a good 8, or an '8' with a lot of lower cards to go with it. It beats a lot of 'bad' 8s.
There is a variant that I've heard sometimes called "English" lowball, which is sorta the in-between version: Straights and flushes count against you, but the ace is a low card. So, A2346 offsuit is the best hand. It's a rare game though, at least around my parts. So don't worry too much.
You will almost NEVER have to worry about any ruleset other than the A-5 set, unless you're playing draw lowball, in which case, deuce-to-seven is a popular game, especially the triple draw variety.
Razz is seven stud for low, almost exclusively played with the Ace to 5 rules.
Basically every split pot game you will run into, like I said before, uses A-5 for the low.
Omaha High/Low and Stud High/Low, as well as Pineapple High/Low when it's player, are almost exclusively "8 or better" and sometimes it's called "Omaha 8, Omaha 8b, Stud 8, etc"
The "8" is not really denoting a different game at all, it is merely a "qualifier," which means, "You have to have an 8, or better, to qualify for the low half of the pot." Thinking of it this way simplifies things considerably.
In either of these "eight or better" games, if nobody at showdown can make a low hand that is an 8 or better (lower,) then the entire pot is awarded to the best high hand. If somebody can make a qualifying low hand, then the person who can make the best 5 card low hand takes half of the pot, and the person who can make the best 5 card high hand takes the other half. This can be the same person, with a different combination of cards and taking both halves is known as "scooping."
Things to keep in mind:
If there are three unpaired cards that are below 9 on the board in Omaha, then a low can be made. If not, no qualifying low can possibly be made.
Same is true for stud: before the river, if a player does not have 3 cards lower than 9 showing, he cannot possibly make a qualifying low hand. If he has less than 2 cards under 9 showing, he can not possibly make a qualifying low hand, regardless of what gets dealt.
If this is unclear, I apologize, but I kinda want to elaborate on all of it, write up a guide, and get somebody to sticky it 
You will almost never run into a high/low game played without a qualifier, and you're probably even less likely to find a game that has a qualifier that is NOT 8.
Posted Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:17 pm GMT by ORGrinder
sorry... i just picked up on this one.
one of the interesting things that often trip me up with OHL is the whole A2 nuts factor.
it's easy to get lulled into a false sense of security (as a new person still learning the game as i am) with the A2. if a low shows on the board, it's easy to think you're golden. but if, for example there's more than 3 lows on the board, and you've been counterfieted by one of them, your A2 low might not be the low. someone with like a 62 might be the low since you have to use different cards.
e.g.:
you = A2XX
him = 62XX
board = 8752K
you have 8752A
he has 7652A
i'm still a newbie at the whole OHL thing so that one still gets me on occasion if i'm not paying close enough attention.
Posted Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:36 pm GMT by TheSalche
| ORGrinder wrote: | you = A2XX
him = 62XX
board = 8752K
you have 8752A
he has 7652A
|
he has 87652 the way you described it, unless he took your ace from you :D
Posted Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:18 pm GMT by ORGrinder
lol. oops. i screwed that example up! hehehehehehe.
Posted Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:49 pm GMT by snoogins47
What ORGrinder was getting at:
You: A2KK
Opponent: 35J9
Flop: 4 7 8
Turn: T
River: A
On the flop and turn, you have the nuts for low: which happens to be A2478. Your opponent has a qualifying low hand, but it's a worse 87: 34578
You also have the lead for high, with your kings.
The turn, you still have the nut low, but I made him suck out on you for high here, just to teach you a lesson. It's completely irrelevant.
The river: Notice that you still have the same low: A2478. (You can't use the board ace, because you only have two cards that can play in a qualifying low. Hence, your low doesn't change value in absolute terms.) However, the Ace on the board gives your opponent a new, better low, a 75: A3457
Note that you went from having the best possible low hand, to getting beat by a 'formerly' far inferior hand, based on you pairing one of the cards you used for low. They call this "counterfeiting" your low, or being "counterfeit" or however else it gets worded...it is similar to the term in high poker.
Also note how much more powerful your low hand is, if you held A23x, instead of just A2x. The presence of the third nut low card is often called "counterfeit protection" or other things along that line. If you'll notice, if you had A23 on the turn, it is impossible for you to end up with something WORSE than the nut low: you cannot be counterfeit, because you still have the nut low, even if an ace, deuce, or trey hits the river.
You're not invulnerable on the flop for low, but you're in a significantly more powerful position.
Note that I don't know the "dictionary definition" of counterfeit, so I'm going to add the caveat that sometimes just having a third decent low card I have heard to being referred as counterfeit protection, such as on this board, A25. It's not quite the same as the above, but your low hand is still significantly more powerful if you hold A25 on this flop/turn, than it is if you hold a naked A2. The only difference in these terms is that sometimes, people will only use it to refer to when you have a third card that will cause you to end up with the best possible low hand even if you pair one of them. With A25, if an ace or a deuce comes, you still have a very good low hand, just not the nuts
Posted Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:27 pm GMT by ORGrinder
thanks for working that out for me! hehehe. i'm still learning to pick up on those situations myself... guess i shouldn't try to teach what i don't know! hehehehe.
Posted Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:12 am GMT by Cyberhwk
Wow! Great thread!
I'll be looking into these books. Out of all the poker rooms around my area there's ONE Omaha game once a week. Evidently the same 8-9 retirees show up pretty much every week. They have a tough time getting any new blood since the game isn't as popular and newbies generally take a shalacking and never come back. I'm hoping to get good enough to join in.
Posted Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:20 am GMT by ORGrinder
be careful on that local game. while it's "doable" for a newcommer to sit at a holdem table and at least hold his own against the sea of other players out there... i've heard that OHL is quite a different beast. online it's the same old story... sea of players flopping around not knowing what they're doing. at the local rooms though, especially if you KNOW the table is generally made up of the same group of old crooners, you could be getting yourself into some trouble.
i know up in my neck of the woods, i've heard that the same group plays OHL all the time (no one else has much interest in it). these are the guys who've been playin poker longer than i've been alive (and i'm not that young either) and it's, apparently, a cut throat game. i might sit at it at some point, but right now, i'm in no way prepaired for a game like that. these guys tend to be rich retired folk with an unending bankroll. it's hard enough when they DON'T know what they're doing... imagine if at the OHL table they actually did!! LOL
in short... ask around, do some research, watch the table for a while, etc. before you decide to sit down. hehehehehe.
Posted Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:20 pm GMT by golddog
Omaha 8 is a fun game, and pretty easily beaten at low limits once you get the hang of it.
Good writeups and examples above. Some key pieces of information I've figured out are:
Don't come in the pot without multiple ways to win. A25K with Ax suited, for example, gives you nice low and wheel draws, and a shot at flush or broadway for high.
Don't raise the nut low--someone else has got it and you're going to get quartered. (although, at low limits at least, there are enough people misreading their lows and/or being willing to call raises with 2nd & 3rd place this may not hold true all the time).
You're really looking for potential to win both ways, rather than betting a single side (unless there's many in the pot, of course).
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