The infamous Kanter move.... |
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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:58 pm GMT by pokerpup
Let's get this up front,I am not a Kanter fan or the poker "expert/professional" I wish I was. But I have some points to get out after rethinking the play Kanter put one Raymer at the WSOP ME.
Of course calling a raise with two suited cards ,can't remember the exact the hand details, Q9s (??) to a raise by Raymer with KK, is a bad play because it's not a made hand an even if you hit top pair you migh t be outkicked and all of that...BUT...what if calling for deception?? But when the flop comes all unders and Raymer bets (AK, AQ, AJ missed obviously) and get reraised all-in, doesn't Raymer have think about a made set which ppK is loosing or potential flush draw which he is only 3:2 favorite, which isn't much of a lead?? After Kanter called the PF raise one would assume that he had something smaller PP or AXs, maybe AK, AQ or AJ (suited or unsuite). Why would you risk being crippled even when you know you are ahead (slightly) especially if it could cripple you at that poin in the tourney?? At this point Kanter's move can take down pot, or he has enough outs (two cards to come and see all 5) to get the best hand.
Personally, I bring this specific play up because a personal buddy of mine, whom I play with every week pulls this move on me EVERYTIME (heads-up or throughout the tourney) and is so obvious that I have to make the crying call or lay my TPTK down. Most of the time I end up crippled when he hits his draw. Poker is gambling and I guess if you wanna gamble why not gamble knowing that the person only has TP or maybe TPTK and worst case a set, while you can still improve (33% of the time) to the best hand by the river if you hit. Or best case he takes the pot down because TP or TPTK does not call. I must say that this exceeds the term "semi-bluff" and makes it an extreme case, but you can get someone in with best draw or make them fold, it doesn't sound like such a bad play if you hit your draw 1 in 3 and get someone to fold 50% of the time. I would like hear your opinion on the move. Also, being on the other end (Raymer that is)...let's put in a few scenerios..
1) a)Heads-up: 2-to-1 chip lead, you have TPTK and they pull a Kanter on you, do you call or fold, and why?
b)Heads-up: 1-to-1 in chips, you have TPTK and he pulls a Kanter on you, do you call or fold, and why?
2) a)Early Tourney: TPTK even in chips, Kanter move is pulled on you? call or fold, and why?
b)Early Tourney: TPTK 2:1 in chip over villain, do you call or fold, and why?
3) a)Bubble: TPTK shortstacked
b)Bubble: TPTK Medium stacked and he would make you short stacked
c)Bubble: TPTK Big stack
Again I don't defend the move, cause personnally I don't risk my entire tourney life on a draw, but some people have the mentality of "no risk no gain" and willing to put it on the line, maybe I am too tight??? Thanks in advance for the replies!!
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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:17 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Having actually spoke to Mr. Kanter about this incident, here is what he told me:
He had QJ suited, and had a four-flush on the turn. He had committed over half his chips into the pot with Raymer already, but as to why he called with the draw, I believe his exact words were, "I just had some kind of melt-down or brain fart because I'd already seen so many chips go into the pot."
Posted Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:43 pm GMT by zinn0
Kanter didn't even think about it either. It was an insta-call. I think he said call even before Raymer could finish saying "all-in." He was such a luckbox for the better part of that tourney.
Posted Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:55 am GMT by Hurricane Ham
You guys are also forgetting he called on the flop with nothing, perhaps to try and take it from Raymer on a later street. Raymer made the right read in that he didn't have the straight on the turn (board was 3567 or something similar) and made the correct play in pushing, and Kanter brain farted and called off his remaining chips with the fourflush.
Pup you asked why would you risk being crippled even if you are ahead, albeit slightly? It's a tournament. Pushing your edges in tournaments when you're ahead is how you win. If I know full well I'm a 3:2 favorite in a hand, my money is going in the middle.
That being said, Kanter got all his money in on the turn, not the flop, when he picked up his draw and only has roughly a 20% chance of winning the pot, since his pair outs were no good.
If your buddy pushes in with flush draws all the time, you should call all day with TPTK. He's gonna make the flush about 35% of the time, and if you've got top pair, his overcards to the flush may also not be good. You've got AK and flop is KXX two of his suit and he's got QJs, then you're in real good shape. The difficult part is deciding whether or not he's got a flush draw, or a hand that kills you (two pair, set). That depends on your read of him on that particular hand.
As for your scenarios, obviously all player dependant and stacks in relations to the blinds and all that blah blah...but I'll give it a shot.
1.) a) Yes, unless stacks are incredibly deep and blinds are small.
b) More player dependant, if he's push happy yes, if he's a tightass then probably not.
2.) a) Fold against typical average tournament player. It's still early, you've got plenty of chips left to find a better spot to get your money in.
b) Again, probably fold with deep stacks.
3.) a) Money goes in every time, though I'd rather push it in than call myself all in with TPTK.
b) Depends on the player, real aggressive, pushes a lot, real tight, conservative...but I tend to play to win and accumulate chips...more often than not I find a call here.
c) Big stack, sure, unless it's putting a huge dent in my stack to make the call.
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