Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:38 pm GMT by Ciso_B
A A in late, $12,000 in chips blinds $300/$600 loose table. I riase to $2,000 after one limper. BB calls as does the limper. Both are fairly loose so could call down with a draw or mid pair.
Flop falls , A  8 5  . They check to me....What do you do now?
Pot is around $6500
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:45 pm GMT by Geno
Depends on their stacks. If we assume you all have about $10,000 left, bet $5,500-6,500 to encourage either an all-in or a fold I would think. I wouldn't shove, and I wouldn't bet any amount between the pot and my stack. The lowest I may go is $4,000 but if I bet that and get called and sucked out on I got what I deserved.
All depends on their stacks I'd say................
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:50 pm GMT by TxShadow
I think I'd bet about the pot. Clearly have the best hand here, and if someone wants to try to draw out on you, you gotta make it pricey. I'd hate to try to slowplay it here and see the turn come down another heart.
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:59 pm GMT by zinn0
Pot it. You might induce an all-in reraise, but you've got the nuts.
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:48 pm GMT by Ciso_B
I decided to bet just $1,000, i felt neither had much and they would either bet or check raise with flush draw, so that didn't worry me, if they had an 8 or 5, i was hoping they'd make trips.one caller.
Turn 6 . He checks , now?
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:55 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Push and pray here. Could be one of these guys has an A as well and is hoping you don't have a higher kicker. Could be one is playing to the flush. Either way you got to find out and you need to get some chips in that pot to find out. I would go with about $4000-$6000 now.
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:25 pm GMT by Tadzio
You have 9 outs for a nutty full-house and 1 out for four of a kind-- assuming you let him catch a flush with that small flop bet. I'd check behind him, then see what he does on the river.
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:27 pm GMT by Johny
| Tadzio wrote: | | You have 9 outs for a nutty full-house if he has the flush. I'd check behind him, then see what he does on the river. |
Why check the turn? If a heart that doesn't pair the board falls he can't really call a bet. Don't give a free card, move-in. I still think you should have bet around the size of the pot though on the flop.
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:29 pm GMT by Tadzio
| Johny4444 wrote: | | Tadzio wrote: | | You have 9 outs for a nutty full-house if he has the flush. I'd check behind him, then see what he does on the river. |
Why check the turn? If a heart that doesn't pair the board falls he can't really call a bet. Don't give a free card, move-in. I still think you should have bet around the size of the pot though on the flop. |
There's less chance of a 4-flush hitting the board than there is of the trip aces improving at this point... I'm playing the numbers
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:34 pm GMT by Johny
| Tadzio wrote: | | Johny4444 wrote: | | Tadzio wrote: | | You have 9 outs for a nutty full-house if he has the flush. I'd check behind him, then see what he does on the river. |
Why check the turn? If a heart that doesn't pair the board falls he can't really call a bet. Don't give a free card, move-in. I still think you should have bet around the size of the pot though on the flop. |
There's less chance of a 4-flush hitting the board than there is of the trip aces improving at this point... I'm playing the numbers |
Checking the turn is giving the opponent a free card to win the hand, why would we want to do this? The pot is too big compared to his stack to lose to a rivered flush.
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:39 pm GMT by Johny
| Ciso_B wrote: | I decided to bet just $1,000, i felt neither had much and they would either bet or check raise with flush draw, so that didn't worry me, if they had an 8 or 5, i was hoping they'd make trips.one caller.
Turn 6 . He checks , now? |
Even betting a little more than the size of the pot would have been a lot better, giving him less to 3-1 on his money. Giving him 7.5-1 on his money is way too much.
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:39 pm GMT by snoogins47
| Ciso_B wrote: | A A in late, $12,000 in chips blinds $300/$600 loose table. I riase to $2,000 after one limper. BB calls as does the limper. Both are fairly loose so could call down with a draw or mid pair.
Flop falls , A 8 5 . They check to me....What do you do now?
Pot is around $6500 |
I bet about 2500-3000 here. I can maybe see betting a bit larger, but we have to take into account: we have top freaking set, and at the very worst, we're what, a 3:2 favorite?
Tad: I hate checking behind on that turn. You have 9 outs to a full house if he has you beat, so you should take the free card... but you're basically handing him a lot of money when he has any heart, any 4, any 9, or any 7, or any worse non-drawing hand that may have given you action.
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:43 pm GMT by Tadzio
There's a good chance we're already behind and the chances of improving aren't so great that I want to pay half my stack to see a call on a turn bet. And I surely don't want to see a raise on my turn bet, because I'd be forced to fold.
However, the chances of improving are great enough that I'd like a free card. Chances are fantastic that my piss poor flop bet on a dangerous board has my opponent thinking that I do not have aces or any set for that matter. If I improve, I would say that my opponent will put all of my chips in on the river close to 100% of the time, which makes things very easy on me. And if I miss the river, I haven't wasted another red cent on this messed-up hand.
Check behind on the turn, it's the most +EV play you can make at this point.
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:51 pm GMT by snoogins47
Well, obviously the main point we're disagreeing on here is how likely we are to be behind, and I can't quantify that.
But seriously, we've got the best hand on the turn like, most of the time.
There are a lot of hands that a loose player could have called preflop, check-called on the flop getting 6.5 to 1, and then checked the turn with, that aren't 47, 79, or XhXh. A whole lot.
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:00 pm GMT by Ciso_B
I pushed all in, decided that he prolly doesnt have a flush , the pot is big enough to win now and theres too many scary cards taht could come on river.I went all in and he called after about 20 seconds deliberation, what u think he had?
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:01 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Not a direct answer to this thread, but a general observation:
I love people who believe 'there is a good chance they are behind' when the third of a suit hits the board.
I especially love playing against them. 
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:03 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| Ciso_B wrote: | | I pushed all in, decided that he prolly doesnt have a flush , the pot is big enough to win now and theres too many scary cards taht could come on river.I went all in and he called after about 20 seconds deliberation, what u think he had? |
Given that you posted it the answer it obvious. He had K x he rivered the flush and you came here to whine about it, like you always do.
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:12 pm GMT by Tadzio
I don't like representing Kx when I raised close to 4x the BB PF. Even with a great hand like trip aces, our opponent isn't very likely to believe we've got a flush here... unless we're loose too.
Do we want to damage our table image with a semi-bluff? If the guy has a flush (I think it's likely), then he's probably got a pretty big flush, possibly a K. If the guy has a straight (not likely), I doubt he'll buy that we've got the flush unless we already have a loose table image.
So here... if we force a guy to fold, he'll think we're willing to bet 4x the BB with King-high (best-case scenario). If we bet the turn heavy to find out if he has a flush and he raises, we'll fold and look weak and be very poor. If we bet the turn heavy and he calls we'll have to fold to pressure on the river, or show down some poorly played aces in the event that he checks.
IF we check behind, we can fold if we miss, people can assume we had KK or QQ or something pretty and knew we were beat. We also get to keep a respectable chip count that people will give us some leverage in hands we won't mess up.
If we hit we get to show down an awsome hand, put someone on tilt (if not bust them) and will likely double up. People will fear our PF raises, etc etc.
There's a lot to consider here, and I think a check gives us the most benefit, despite greed concerning the pot's size.
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:21 pm GMT by Tadzio
| suitedaces84 wrote: |
Given that you posted it the answer it obvious. He had K x he rivered the flush and you came here to whine about it, like you always do. |
Gawd that'd be horrible. Even 6.5:1 odds don't justify calling a flop bet with only 1 in your hand. Maybe he had A x K ? That'd be kinda funny.
Posted Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:51 am GMT by Ciso_B
He called his last $5,500 or so chips with 7 8 , and river came 9 . I was surprised hed call with this , but thought id win too, what am i 82% ahead? Eh eh eh, i felt he didnt have the flush but could hit it hence the all in.Just wondering what u lot think i should have done different? Bet the pot heavier perhaps yeh, but with him even having 78 in this hand , im still forcing the error on the flop arent I ? I mean im giving 6-1 but hes drawing dead on the flop isnt he? No outs, he simply got lucky.
But any thoughts or criticism would be appreciated
Posted Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:49 am GMT by UrAteUp
All this flush talk made me over look the straight possibility. Tough luck. I probably would have done a large bet when the A hit the board and make him think if he wanted to put all or most of his chips in chancing he would get his draw hand.
Posted Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:38 pm GMT by Loonbat
The flop bet was horrid - far too small. You did give him odds (in his mind) if he put you just on top pair. His outs were another 8, a 7, or a backdoor str8 or flush draw (one card on the flop was a club, right ... I forget). Getting those sorts of odds, I would probably call with just bottom pair if I put you on an ace (not a set).
Posted Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:47 pm GMT by Ciso_B
yeah like i said i was willing to let him draw to runner flush or runner straight on flop , but he has no outs.So I am still comfortable with my small bet, some weak players would bet the flop like that with say JJ /QQ simply cos they dont like to show weakness. If his call on the flop isnt bad (it wouldnt be if i had just one pair), then his call on the turn in my opinion is awful. He has risked his whole stack on the turn on an open ended and isnt he worried of the hearts himself? Even if he makes his straight it could make me a flush conceivable unless he has me on trips, in which case he has fewer outs then he thinks!
Posted Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:00 pm GMT by QuietOne
To truly understand this, we would have to have an idea of this guy. From what you wrote, we can only judge by the cards but . . . we need to play the player and not the cards.
What did you know about him? I've meet those players who will always risk all there chips on a draw. If he was a tight player, your betting might not have been that bad. But small bets and a check helped him get into a drawing situation.
It's hard to understand the advice many times on this forum. How can you judge anyones play without knowing anything about the table and how can you ask for advice explaning the table?
But in general, I always, if no information in availble, stick with the expressions "Make the pay to see a card" After the flop, I'd have put in a pot size raise. If he calls and draws out by hitting runner, runner, that so be it.
Posted Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:08 pm GMT by snoogins47
I might have to write an article about what bets really accomplish. So many people don't seem to understand the whole thing.
Folks, I'm going to let you in on a secret: flopping a hand, and then shoving all in to "charge the draws" is not the secret to winning poker. Part of the reason is that, shockingly, there are hands our opponent could hold, that aren't flush draws. Trust me, I've actually seen non-flushdraw hands held by opponents once or twice. And I've even got called on the flop with hands that weren't flush draws. One time, I actually saw an opponent with UNSUITED cards. Seriously.
| Quote: | | Getting those sorts of odds, I would probably call with just bottom pair if I put you on an ace (not a set). |
Which is awesome for us, just for the record.
Posted Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:21 pm GMT by QuietOne
I was not talking about shoving all my chips in the pot but not giving him the odds to call.
But, again, we can't know for sure since we don't know the table. You're right, however, that shoving all you chip in is not winning poker. What is winning poker is knowing the players at the table and figuring out what they will do if I push all my chips in.
I've got trip Aces. I want to double up. From what I know, would this guy call me on a draw? Am I willing to put my tournament on the line at this point? Where are we in the tournament? Early, maybe not. Late, maybe?
I do agree with most players not understanding the raise. I play with a group and I have to laugh when I see minumum raises. Too funny. (you see this on line a lot too) I want to scream, "What the point of that raise!" It did nothing! When you raise, raise enough to make the others think!
Anyway . . .
Posted Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:20 pm GMT by Ciso_B
Okay, im playing with a loose agressive guy, snoogins i completely understand what you say about the purpose of a bet. I bet small on flop so it kind of looks like a weak bet , say I want to take the pot down without committing much. Loose agressive player like my opponent may sense weakness in the bet and come over the top. When he just called i felt he probably had something 89 or something 45suited something like that, plus when he is not flushing (which is applicable for this case and often will be!) I am not giving him favorable odds to draw out on me. 6-1 odds yes, but on the flop he has to runner a straight or runner quads to outdraw. Even if he had 78c, and runnered a full house , I win!
The turn bet all in was me just trying to take the pot, I didnt have him on a flush draw , players like him wouldnt check-call on the flop with flush draws, but he definitely could hold one heart and if thats the case hes got to pay now. I made him gamble and was in good shape, and i should have doubled up there. So really I am pretty happy, lets take the other side of the coin, I bet the pot on the flop - he folds his 8. Wheres the value in that?
Now I bet small enough to take a turn card, he prolly thought on the turn "hmm now i got open ended with a pair" , and i made him make an incorrect play. Its just a shame I got outdrew but to get him to call me with just mid pair on the turn with 3 hearts on board and him have none, i must have done something right.
|
|
