Posted Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:59 am GMT by tame_deuces
7-handed NL live.
MP and hero both at around 120~BB
BB is around 70~
MP is a high stakes NL regular, so he is slumming it up on our homegame. He is somewhat tricky, bit too aggressive and just loves to push people around. He plays position badly and bluffs too much. He does have a certain flair for folding in the right places though. He plays about 30-35% of his hands.
BB is tight,solid and as far as I can tell a very good NL player. More used to full ring than 7-h though. Hasn't been involved in many pots so far.
Hero has a tight image and has been involved in few pots, though have only shown a hand once and it was a bluff.
Hero is on the button with: 2 2
Folds, MP raises 3x,Folds,Hero calls,SB folds,BB calls
Flop: J  J  2
BB checks,Villain pots,Hero...?
What should my gameplan be?
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Posted Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:10 pm GMT by Soup_dog
Hmmm.... well, I would be worried that MP has a jack but you can't play it that way.
Acutally, let me rephrase that. I hope he does have a jack but doesn't pair his other hole card. (I've been burned huge lately when my full house gets trumped by a bigger one.)
Anyways, I would think at this point your hand is strong enough to try and milk them for some chips. You may get drawn out on but with two cards to go I think you will win more often than you lose.
I would probably bet about 50% of the pot in an attempt to make it look like a continuation bet. Hopefully they will call. Maybe even raise. (If they did, I would push.)
Edit: Dang. I need to learn how to read. Yeah, go with what Sean said.
Posted Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:21 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| tame_deuces wrote: | | What should my gameplan be? |
Min-raise the pot bet. One of two things can happen with the BB: he either has a hand and he's going to hang around regardless of whether you call or raise, or he doesn't and he's going to fold. I don't think you can smooth call here in the hopes to bring him along with nothing.
If MP pushes, it's an easy call. If he calls and checks the turn, then I think you check behind regardless of what falls. If it's a non- it looks like you missed. If it's a , it looks like you're afraid of the flush. That could induce a river bet (or a call if he checks to you), and you can come over the top of just about anything except a third J.
If he leads the turn, I push. *edit* Ok, maybe not a push, but I would bet something between a min-raise and everything. *edit*
Posted Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:48 pm GMT by Loonbat
I smooth call here ... you may already be beat (although unlikely). I don't want to see the aggressor fold to a raise and I certainly don't want to get the BB out. I want him to keep trying to take the pot from me. The only way I'm scared off of this pot is if another J comes.
Let's assume what you're up against.
-Worst case - 2 Js - nothing you can do.
-Next worst case - Jx from one and a pp from the other. Look at the outs they have collectively
-2 pps
-1 pp and 2 overcards
I'm milking this the whole way, letting my betting be done for me. I'm willing to lose my stack with this hand.
Posted Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:20 pm GMT by Skribbles
Smooth call to try and get the BB to draw to a flush or some sort of hand.
Worrying about the Villian pairing his other hole card is worthless. Do you honestly think that he would lay down trip J? If he is going to fill up, it is going to happen regardless of how you bet. The only thing I would be worried about here is a running pair on the board.
So... Smooth call in hopes of the BB calling also. If BB folds, min-raise or push turn depending on the villians bet.
Posted Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:45 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
The reason why I don't like a flop call is because it actually looks more suspicious/dangerous than a raise. BB is folding a large portion of his holdings here whether you call or raise, and he's likely continuing with the rest whether you call or raise. He's already classified him as a "good" NL player, so I can't see him calling a pot-sized bet on a paired board with a flush draw. If he has a J, he's coming along for the ride regardless.
Posted Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:18 pm GMT by Loonbat
Yes, but how is Tame classified? (that's the real question)
Is it likely the bettor puts him on the flush draw with a smooth call?
Also, the BB would be getting 3-1 odds on the flush draw with Tame just calling ... perfect.
Posted Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:35 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Loonbat wrote: | | Yes, but how is Tame classified? (that's the real question) |
| tame_deuces wrote: | | Hero has a tight image and has been involved in few pots, though have only shown a hand once and it was a bluff. |
I have to take him at his word, with no other information.
| Loonbat wrote: | | Is it likely the bettor puts him on the flush draw with a smooth call? |
I'm more inclined to think that a min-raise looks more like a flush draw than a call does. It looks like a perfect example of someone trying to buy a free card. Given bettor's predilection to "push people around," I think a min-raise here can prompt him to play back with as little as A-high if he thinks tame is making a move.
| Loonbat wrote: | | Also, the BB would be getting 3-1 odds on the flush draw with Tame just calling ... perfect. |
I have to say I will be completely shocked if BB calls with anything less than a J in this spot; and if he has a J, he's raising.
You might stack off one player, but you're not going to get both, except in those rare circumstances where they're both holding Jx.
Posted Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:43 pm GMT by UrAteUp
I got to stop looking at this from a tournament stand point. If this was a SNG it would be easy to tell you what to do. Problem is it is a money game and plays differently. If in a tournament I pick up a hand like that then baby call me coming back over the top of his pot bet and pushing. Since it isn't though then you have to play differently in my opinion.
Now the first bet made by villian was a 3xBB bet. Which usually means hands such as AX or PP for tight players. For lose players it could be two suited face cards. While you do have a nut hand right now, giving this guy a chance to draw more could cost you in the long run. Suppose he is playing AJ. He now holds a set of Js. All he needs to do is pair the A and he has two cards to catch any one of 3 outs to make a larger full house.
Ask yourself this when you think of slow playing. Do you want to risk a sizeable pot and let him get a draw on you? Not me...push here and take this hand DOWN now before it becomes a bad beat post.... :D .
Posted Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:05 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| UrAteUp wrote: | | Ask yourself this when you think of slow playing. Do you want to risk a sizeable pot and let him get a draw on you? |
| pokerstove wrote: | Board: Jc Js 2s
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 77.0707 % 77.07% 00.00% { 2d2h }
Hand 2: 22.9293 % 22.93% 00.00% { AJs, AJo }
|
Yeah, I'll take that chance.
| UrAteUp wrote: | | Not me...push here and take this hand DOWN now before it becomes a bad beat post.... :D . |
AJ is almost never folding in this spot. It doesn't matter if you push or not.
Posted Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:17 pm GMT by Skribbles
| UrAteUp wrote: |
Ask yourself this when you think of slow playing. Do you want to risk a sizeable pot and let him get a draw on you? Not me...push here and take this hand DOWN now before it becomes a bad beat post.... :D . |
So would you lay down AJ in this situation, be it a cash game or tourny?
Posted Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:15 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Well, I went for the smooth-call because he could probably be holding alot of crap and I was pretty sure he'd fire again on the turn. Sean's view on BB is totally correct. If BB sees me calling here he is folding anything but a jack and most likely raising if he has one.
I think a raise could work too, he might push any two...so we had two errors too use and which one is best, I don't know. Though ofcourse, if you have two errors to chose from, the plan which doesn't give away a free card may be the best one. 
BB checks, MP pots, Hero calls,BB folds
Turn: 9
MP bets about 1/3 ( ), Hero....?
Posted Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:29 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| tame_deuces wrote: | | MP bets about 1/3 (), Hero....? |
Raise pot. Given the size of the bet, I think he doesn't have a J, believes that you do, and you aren't getting any more out of him. If he has a J, you take his stack. If he has J9, he takes yours. Anything else, and he's looking for the first opportunity to exit.
Posted Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:06 am GMT by tame_deuces
Yeah, I figured this thing had gone far enough, so it went like this:
MP bets 1/3, Hero pots, MP pushes, Hero calls
Too his credit (or my miscredit  ) he said 'F***' and flipped QJ. (I guess he was used to this from his high stakes games).
I dodged the 7 bullets and a nice scoop for me.
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