Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:30 pm GMT by Skribbles
Looking for thoughts on how this hand played out and what you would put the players on. Both players are rather tight but will mix it up.
NL100 @ Party
Player A = $125
Player B = $90
Player A raises to $5 from MP.
Player B calls from the CO.
Flop: A  Q  6 
A bets $6 into a $14~ pot
B calls.
Turn: 8
A checks
B bet $6 into $28 pot.
A calls
River: K
A leads for $25
B calls.
Edit: Full table
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Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:06 pm GMT by Soup_dog
Hmmm... KQ for player A and AJ for player B are my guesses.
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:07 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
Full Table:
A: AK
B: AQ
Short-handed:
A: KQ
B: Ax
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:26 pm GMT by Ciso_B
A - AK or QQQ
B- QK ?
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:23 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
A: AKo
B: AA or QQ
Cold call the flop, value bet the turn, was scared of a straight on river and just calls the $25
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:42 pm GMT by Jernej Zorec
A: KK
B: AJ KQ maybe ATs
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:07 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Both A and B are on acid...  ...because of this I take down the pot with 22o by convincing them, I have 5 of a kind....
Seriously now though. If this was a micro game I would say:
A = 10J
B = AK
This being a 100NL game changes things I think a little:
A = QKs, AQ
B = AK, KK, QQ
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:05 pm GMT by TheSalche
J10 for player A, and it was skribbles
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:31 pm GMT by Skribbles
| TheSalche wrote: | | J10 for player A, and it was skribbles |
No sir.
Player A = AA
Player B = KK
Thoughts on how it was played from both players angles?
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:59 pm GMT by Ninja
It could be me playing scared, but if I were player B I would've folded on the flop.
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:21 pm GMT by tame_deuces
I'm torn between naming player B brilliant or retarded. He certainly smelled the rat though.
I think player A got far too greedy in this hand.
Preflop play was funky, I don't like it too much.
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:37 pm GMT by Tadzio
Player B was outplayed by Player A.
Player A hit his A on the flop and then played it like a continuation bet. Player B probably should've folded here. Who raises 5x BB from middle position without an Ace? KK or QQ, maybe, but KK is rediculously unlikely, and QQ puts Player B into a worse position than AX. AQs is just as deadly as QQ on this flop with KK being held by Player B. I think Player B talked himself into believeing Player A had JJ, TT or KQs.
Player A checks the turn like he was giving up on a bad bluff, and Player B decides to make a value bet on the turn. All of a sudden Player B is handling this hand like he's milking a flush/straight draw. KJs, JTs raises 5x BB in MP? Player B should've assumed he was behind and checked here.
Finally, Player A smacks it to Player B, and Player B seems to realize that AA was a possibility afterall, so instead of pushing all-in when he hit his K, he makes a crying call, hoping Player A had AQ or JTs and the river saved/killed him.
It's not that Player B made any massive mistakes, Player A just had the goods the whole way and played Player B like a fiddle. Player B's mistakes were made on the flop and the turn-- the turn bet being his worst mistake (he should've bet more or not at all... it doesn't look like he thought it was possible he was behind until the river came). His call on the river wasn't great, but if he put Player A on AQ, QQ, the K just saved him, so it's sorta understandable. But again, if Player B put him on AQ or QQ he shoulda folded on the flop....
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:39 pm GMT by Tadzio
| tame_deuces wrote: | | He certainly smelled the rat though. |
Not until the river-- if then-- and he still payed Player A off.... How did he smell the rat?
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:43 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| Tadzio wrote: | | Player B was outplayed by Player A. |
I disagree in that, I don't think anyone outplayed anyone here. That seems results biased.
Remember that player A doesn't know what player B holds and he is dicking around with less than 1/2 pot bets on a drawy board and check/calling turn when it became even more drawy. And he is doing it with a hand where he will have to bleed of his stack if someone hits something.
And why on earth should he fold the river if he smelled the rat? Calling is much more logical, he has 2nd top set.
If player B had J T would he still have been outplayed by player A?
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:02 pm GMT by Tadzio
| tame_deuces wrote: |
Remember that player A doesn't know what player B holds and he is dicking around with less than 1/2 pot bets on a draw heavy board and check/calling turn when it became even more drawy. |
Draw heavy? The best made hand (that has a reasonable chance to improve-- i.e. more than 1 out) Player B could have vs Player A on the flop is top two-pair, which gives Player B 2 outs (if he entered the hand with Q6, he's not tight, even if he does "mix it up" from time to time). Second best he could have is an inside straight draw, which gives him 4 outs (the fact that a JT inside straight draw did happen to fill on the river is not a reason to think this will happen often enough to make Player A's play bad).
On the turn, you simply cannot put your opponent on the heart flush. Or if you do, you're playing weak. A hand with a 6 in it simply would not see the flop here very often, and the A is not only unlikely, but as far as you and I know, could be in Player A's hand. Would a KJ or JT call Player A PF and on the flop? Maybe, but it would be a mistake on the flop with either hand (even with a weak bet like that).
Like I said, player B's play wasn't horrible, but Player A had the goods and knew enough to outplay him.
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:04 pm GMT by Tadzio
| tame_deuces wrote: |
If player B had J T would he still have been outplayed by player A? |
Yes. Player B with JT is a huge dog PF, and Flop. On the turn, a check-call is a gamble, but it's a gamble in which Player A has the edge.
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:42 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| Tadzio wrote: | | tame_deuces wrote: |
If player B had J T would he still have been outplayed by player A? |
Yes. Player B with JT is a huge dog PF, and Flop. On the turn, a check-call is a gamble, but it's a gamble in which Player A has the edge. |
Er...why does he have the edge?
A drawer won't pay off if he doesn't hit. That isn't outplaying, that's digging your own grave by lack off betting.
Well, IMHO atleast. Let's agree to disagree. This is NL. There is never one answer only. And I might have been abit to cranky in this thread. 
And frankly...top set with AA is a groovy hand, but I prefer its lower cousins any day of the week. They don't scary KK away.
Posted Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:22 pm GMT by Tadzio
If JT is one of the hands I put my opponent on in this situation (it wouldn't be... but if it was) I'd be willing to check the river when it misses in hopes of a last-ditch bluff that I could min-raise. The question is, would a JT pay more calling a turn bet while he's behind, or bluffing the river, where he gets assumed fold equity. That depends on the player-read, and we can't really comment on that, except to say that both players are tight and are willing to change things up.
An even more important question, imo, is why are you putting so much stock in the idea that Mr. Tight Player at a full table B called 5x BB with only one player definitely in the pot whom covers you when your hand is JT ? Seriously, answer this: how is this a reasonable expectation?
I'm willing to consider that I'm just not as advanced as some other players, but if I were getting ~2.5-1 on my money and I had JTs facing a 5x BB raise at a full table, I'd lay it down... even in the CO. And if a monkey crawled into my ear and I accidently hit the call button, I'd fold on the flop with 2 overs on the board and only an inside straight draw getting ~4-1 on my money. And if that monkey just wouldn't leave my ear alone and I called on the flop, I wouldn't bet the turn with JTs because incomplete draws are not a threat to people with made hands... and that's all the threat the 8 had was that it created more draws. Betting $6 into a $28 dollar pot with AQ-JT-8 high has about 0 fold equity. KJo or KTo could make that call.
So:
5x BB call without pot-odds to support JTs
+Flop call without pot-odds to support JTs
+Turn bet with 0 fold equity vs anything but complete garbage.
+Tight player
Doesn't smell like JTs to me.
However, even if JTs is within the range of hands we can, as Player A, put Player B on, we're then dealing with a rather wide range of hands. Most of which pay us off better if we play the way Player A did, and avoid betting the turn. In the event that JTs happens to be the hand we're playing against, we pay them off this time and still make money in the long-term.
{edited to remove a stinging comment. I didn't catch tame's edit in the above post until I'd posted this response}
Posted Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:26 am GMT by tame_deuces
I just used it as an example, I didn't put him on anything. Frankly the action in the entire hand pretty much confused the hell out of me and I would have had troubles putting anyone on anything. But since not especially deep stacks weren't lost when KK was up against AA and both hid sets, someone did something horrible wrong.
Apart from that, as a position call JTs is far from horrible. I'd prefer a lower suited connector, gapper or PP if I could, but it will do. It does have the nice ability of being able to hit straights when opponents hits sets, two pair and top pair. And it is an easy postflop fold. And I doubt it is an extreme dog versus a typical hand raising range. I doubt or raiser has AA each time he raises after all.
And the lovely thing about it, is that you'll know for sure when you are behind. That is a lovely thing in NL.
Posted Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:03 pm GMT by Soup_dog
Frankly I think they both played it pretty well. Player B was just in a bad spot. I'm actually surprised he didn't go broke on this hand.
Posted Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:31 pm GMT by Skribbles
Player A = Yours truly.
Preflop: Standard 5xBB raise with a big hand. Had I been opening the pot I would have only gone 4x but there was a limper in front of me. A 5xBB is, from my experience, not cold called with a hand like JTs, KJs etc. Of course there is always the donk exception.
Flop: I got the nuts on a non-draw heavy board. I wanted my bet to look like a continuation bet and that I was scared of the Ace hoping that he re-raises me.
Turn: The heart doesn't worry me at all. I should have added that I had the A . That would mean the only plausible flush draw he could have is KJ , which I would pay-off if he hit and I would take my money back fromm him another time. I checked to him with the intention of check/raising but since he only bet out $6 I figured a check/raise would scare him off. He had beat $15+ I would have definitly raised him.
River: If the K didn't help his hand, he wasn't calling any bet. Throughout the hand I figured he had AK, KQ, JJ, TT or possibly AJ. Most other possibilites would be re-raising me on the flop, ie. AQ, QQ. I lead into hoping he had KQ or AK and that he would re-raise. Unfortunatly he smelled a rat and simply called.
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