Playing against loose callers |
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Posted Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:13 am GMT by boden11
I've been trying to hone my skills playing hold em and have made adjustments to my play style --being more aggressive, better starting hand choices, adjusting my bets depending on position and type of players in the hand, etc etc. But it just seems like in lower limit hold'em it doesn't matter. More and more people are playing this game who know almost nothing about it. They'll call to the river in 2/4 with nothing better than a middle pair even with the scariest of boards! I was down like $20 in a 2/4 game after an hour and a half (after a run of bad cards, and then good cards which missed the flop every time). Got 7-8 diamonds. Flop came A Q 6 with 2 diamonds (think the A and the Q) bet $2 and got like 2 callers, no raisers. Game had been VERY passive for the past few hours with only like 25% of flops being raised and almost everyone calling and no raising. Turn came an 8 for a pair of 8's and I bet out again ($4) hoping for some more information, one fold another call, but not a quick one and from a calling station player. River came another A (hearts) so I missed my diamond flush but did have 2 pair, he checked (I feared a possible slow playing A-rag hand hoping for me to bet out and raise) so I checked it down, knowing he would probably call even with a Q and I was fairly sure my 8's were busted.
They were, he flipped up pocket 10s for 2 pair. I still don't get how people play tho, with a flop of AQ6 pocket 10's should be folded to the first bet. Sure my hand wasn't all that pretty either, but with 1 to a flush on the flop and an easy fold to any raise (at least on the turn) it was playable. It woulda been so nice for the river to hit with the 10 of diamonds.
How do you change up your game in lower limit holdem? The blinds just keep eating up your stack and most pots in passive games are pathetic!! Higher limit games keep giving my bankroll bigger swings (I can hold my own in 4/8 but don't like the possibility of leaving $120-150 lighter if I make a few bad plays).
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Posted Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:02 am GMT by Dave B
Had he seen you bet down the third pair earlier? If so-he probably didnt respect your bets. You didnt raise preflop (no should you have), for all he knew, you were on a flush draw.
Also-for some reason, I have seen many many players call to the river w/ pocket pairs, even if they might be the 3rd or 4th pair. I dont know why-maybe the are hoping or a miracle set on the turn or river, but people love their pocket pairs.
If I think my opponent is weak or I want to appear strong, in your situation I would bet the flop, check the turn-then check raise if bet into. That tends to get peoples attention more than betting out.
Posted Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:48 pm GMT by boden11
I think I did bet out with a ragged flop that was checked around when holding overcards (flop was like 2-5-7 rainbow and I had AQs which I raised pre-flop) I don't think it went to showdown tho and I folded on the turn to a bet. I did show some aggression with weaker hands (one which tied cuz the kicker didn't play and one that won because it did). He was fairly predictable tho, first bets meant top pair or better, pre-flop raise was A-face or pocket pair >10, etc etc. With my outright bet on a flop of AQ6 and bet on the turn, he shoulda put me on at least a pair of Q's or A's which would beat his 10's. With 2 Q's (or A's) in play that meant his pocket 10s had the same likelihood as improving as my pair tripping up, and in all likelihood neither would improve (and he would lose). I don't understand how people play!!
I was reading up on a low limit holdem book today and it said for loose-passive games one should tighten up starting cards and decent draws gain value (but not to bet out on them as you would with tighter players). However it said the pots were decent sized which I don't agree with. In lower limit loose-passive games the pots are horrible (like 8-10x the betting limit for turn and river play).
Posted Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:05 pm GMT by feverpa
you are right... the guy with pocket 10s shouldn't have called the bet on the flop....
he should have RAISED.
I am a firm believer that in certain situations you raise or re-raise on the flop to get information... you do it when you have something... a made hand already.... but when there are overcards on the board...
flopping middle pair... or holding a lower pocket pair is a perfect time to do this...
his re-raise likely would have won him the hand right there... and it certainly would have given him control of the betting...
I'm guessing that you would have folded to a raise when all you were holding was a flush draw with two middle/low cards in your hand... very succeptible to a better flush, or not hitting it at all...
Posted Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:34 pm GMT by Always_Bored
| Dave B wrote: |
Also-for some reason, I have seen many many players call to the river w/ pocket pairs, even if they might be the 3rd or 4th pair. I dont know why-maybe the are hoping or a miracle set on the turn or river, but people love their pocket pairs.
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you got that right. Ive seen people call HUGE bets with very low pocket pairs. They see a pair in their hand and they just get all excited. They stop thinking at all. They dont even notice that they have a lower pair then the lowest card possible on the table. I will only play low pocket pairs in late position and if it stays cheap. And if i hit nothing on the flop and there is a raise, i fold.
Boden11, your problem is you are trying to overthink bad players. Most of the time they wont catch on. If you try to bet like you have a flush or a straight they wont see it and they will call you with pocket pairs or even worse sometimes. And if you dont have the flush they will beat you or even worse catch something on the river. Ive seen so many horrible players stay in through big bets with nothing just to catch a hand on the turn and/or river. The big bet would have got a smart player to fold but a dumb player doesnt realise you may be betting because you have something. He just keeps thinking to himself "there are 2 more cards coming, maybe i will get something then"
Posted Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:46 pm GMT by Absolution
Hmm in 2/4 you probably get some smart players. I agree that the guy should have reraised you, but calling is fine. You tried to represent aces after limping. How is he supposed to believe that? He probably figured there was a good chance he was ahead.
If the game is as loose as you say and everybody is limping and calling, you should cut down on your bluffs and semi-bluffs. If you like playing medicore hands like that you need to flop a monster (or have a lot of outs) in those type of games. I mean, there is also a good chance the guy just called because "it's a 7 card game", "any hand can win", etc... It's the worst in limit games where you can't put them to a real decision. They figure, for another few bucks I'll see what comes. Like Always_Bored said, don't overthink it. They won't catch on to any moderately intelligent play. If they have two picture cards, any ace or king, or any pocket pair, they probably won't care what you do (blinders go up). I learned long ago not to try and represent a hand on scarey boards against weak players. They don't even notice.
Posted Mon May 24, 2004 4:21 am GMT by snoogins47
It's funny, in NL games, I dream of people who chase stupid draws.
In limit games, they give me nightmares ;P
Basically, in a situation like that, you have to play straight up, standard poker. Save your representing made hands, etc... for the players who are good enough to understand what's going on. Don't be fancy.
I think, especially in low limit games, though there's always exceptions...
If you think you have the best of it, bet. If you might have the best of it after more cards come, bet/call. If you're beat, run away.
Pocket 10s isn't even ALL that horrible of a call in that scenario, compared to some of the shit I've seen. I've seen a guy call a pre-flop all-in with Kd7d, and at the showdown before the cards are out, he flips them up and yells "DIAMONDS!" and made his flush, to the all-in bettor's QQ.
I saw in a tournament, somebody calling bets all the way to the river, board ended up being A K K Q J...
He had 2 5. Spades. After the flop, he had two unders, and a three-flush. Called it down, caught his tiny flush on the river, and busted somebody with the straight.
Just keep it simple, against these players. These people are gambling, not playing. You can't outplay somebody who's not playing. Just play your strong cards strong, muck the weak ones, and you can consistently make some scratch.
Posted Thu May 27, 2004 6:47 am GMT by boden12
heh after re-reading my old post I still feel the need to complain about losing my top 2 pair (which i bet aggressively) to a runner runner flush.
Posted Thu May 27, 2004 2:07 pm GMT by Sh1rp
Funny story about a 2/4 table and a pocket underpair. Biggest caller I've ever seen had pocket 8s. By the river, the board was QQJJK. One guy bet, another guy raised and pocket 8s CALLED! My only regret was that I couldn't get a single hand while he was still sitting at the table.
Posted Thu May 27, 2004 2:41 pm GMT by BeerWench13
| Quote: | | But it just seems like in lower limit hold'em it doesn't matter. More and more people are playing this game who know almost nothing about it. They'll call to the river in 2/4 with nothing better than a middle pair even with the scariest of boards! |
That's why I call limit no foldem holdem. You can even find this in $100/200 limit games.
Posted Thu May 27, 2004 3:59 pm GMT by nicthestick
when I go to the local card room and play 3/6 or 4/8, I sit passively for the first couple of rounds, and fold everything that is not AA or KK. Then every pot I enter is for a raise. This get attention from the goofs around here. It wins alot of pots, and lets me know when im beat when some caller makes his draw.
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