Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:12 am GMT by zinn0
50NL on stars. Villain is not too fancy, has shown down solid hands, as well as crazy bluffs. Just an overall good player. Honestly, the one person I did not want to get involved in a pot with, as well.
PokerStars Game #3990617675: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/02/16 - 10:19:31 (ET)
Table 'Demeter' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: frosty chips ($26.40 in chips)
Seat 2: Spoonernaf99 ($50 in chips)
Seat 3: toot94 ($32.95 in chips)
Seat 4: ilduce ($53.55 in chips)
Seat 5: Meehan24 ($35.85 in chips)
Seat 6: Apex-X ($308.70 in chips)
Seat 7: puro stinko ($24 in chips)
Seat 8: Arharley ($15.85 in chips)
Seat 9: zinn0 ($59.80 in chips)
ilduce: posts small blind $0.25
Meehan24: posts big blind $0.50
dealt to zinn0 (9c 9h)
CALL Apex-X, $0.50
FOLD puro stinko
FOLD Arharley
RAISE zinn0 , $1.50 to $2
FOLD frosty chips
FOLD Spoonernaf99
FOLD toot94
FOLD ilduce
FOLD Meehan24
RAISE Apex-X, $5 to $7
I see this every once in a while at ring games, but this is really more of a SnG type move. I will say that I had been a virtual card rack for the past 50 hands or so, and the guy might've gotten sick of me raising everytime I was in a pot...
What's your play?
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Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:36 am GMT by Dat_Dude
I would personally fold here. It may sound a little tight, but I have lost a lot of pots in the past from limp-reraisers. When I see this play now, I usually don't call without AA, KK, AK, or QQ SOME of the time.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:10 pm GMT by Soup_dog
based on your read I would think you would want to fold. If he keeps on doing it then I would change tactics.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:42 pm GMT by tame_deuces
What kind of continuation bets do he make? Will he fire again on turn?
You have position and this smells like an overpair. You have to put in 5 bucks into a 10$.
It will swell to 15. If you hit your set and villain fires close to pot bet, he will probably push turn or have to call you on turn with an overpair. Plus he his bigstacked and may not be especially careful.
I say call because if you hit your set you will likely make back what you need, plus the little extra overhead we need as profit proofing versus set over set or being sucked out on.
Villain made a pretty dangerous amount to raise with if he has a high PP.
Position, closing the betting, a swelled pot, a PP, not to big a call, probably up against a good hand.
This is NL at its best.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:29 pm GMT by Phil14312
| tame_deuces wrote: | What kind of continuation bets do he make? Will he fire again on turn?
You have position and this smells like an overpair. You have to put in 5 bucks into a 10$.
It will swell to 15. If you hit your set and villain fires close to pot bet, he will probably push turn or have to call you on turn with an overpair. Plus he his bigstacked and may not be especially careful.
I say call because if you hit your set you will likely make back what you need, plus the little extra overhead we need as profit proofing versus set over set or being sucked out on.
Villain made a pretty dangerous amount to raise with if he has a high PP.
Position, closing the betting, a swelled pot, a PP, not to big a call, probably up against a good hand.
This is NL at its best. |
Once again nice analysis tame.
Here is the perfect situation for implied odds. You know if you hit you can almost certainly double-up against this big stack, especially if he limp-reraised you. If you don't hit, you can check/fold the flop and lose no more money. This is what Brunson means when he says get in there and gamble, you know you are behind but drawing out is very lucrative.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:53 pm GMT by zinn0
Ok...honestly, I wasn't buying his reraise. After playing a lot of hands with this guy, I pretty much knew that if he had a big PP, he comes out raising, not limping. Anyway, he could be mixing it up as well...
CALL zinn0 , $5
Flop
2d 5h 5s
BET Apex-X, $11
zinn0?
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:05 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
You missed, fold the hand now. The only thing you can hope for in this spot is AK, which still might end up beating you.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:28 pm GMT by 1988 TR
Zinn - I'm with you about the limping part - Probably indicates not a big Pocket Pair. I like to mix it up a bit & limp UTG with AA, but that is in a Tourney, not in a cash game - People do make that play occasionally though, but playing in constant fear of you opponnent having AA will lead to weak play.
I seriously think you have the best hand here. I would push.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:29 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Dat_Dude wrote: | | You missed, fold the hand now. The only thing you can hope for in this spot is AK, which still might end up beating you. |
Huh? Missed? Outside of a 9 flopping, that is the best flop possible.
AK still might beat him? Good, so push your stack & make him pay for that 6 outer.
Personally, I think the guy has a low pocket pair & was trying to buy the pot pre-flop.
The beauty of it is, if you push now, I kind of think he will put you on a hand like AK & given his big stack, it is likely he will give you a call with his 44.
So in steps :
1) Push
2) Get a call
3) Dogde a 4 on the turn
4) Dodge a 4 on the river
5) Dodge a runner-runner straight
6) Profit
:D
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:38 pm GMT by TxShadow
Honestly, I would most likely let it go here. Chances are you're up against 2 overcards, but he could also have TT or JJ. Even if he's got 2 overs, he's gonna suck out on you about a quarter of the time anyway. I don't feel confident that I'm right in this decision enough times to justify putting all of my money in there when I didn't improve my PP. But hell, maybe I don't gamble enough.
Oh and in regards to calling 5 more preflop, I probably would have done the same.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:43 pm GMT by TxShadow
| 1988 TR wrote: | | Dat_Dude wrote: | | You missed, fold the hand now. The only thing you can hope for in this spot is AK, which still might end up beating you. |
Huh? Missed? Outside of a 9 flopping, that is the best flop possible.
AK still might beat him? Good, so push your stack & make him pay for that 6 outer.
Personally, I think the guy has a low pocket pair & was trying to buy the pot pre-flop.
The beauty of it is, if you push now, I kind of think he will put you on a hand like AK & given his big stack, it is likely he will give you a call with his 44.
So in steps :
1) Push
2) Get a call
3) Dogde a 4 on the turn
4) Dodge a 4 on the river
5) Dodge a runner-runner straight
6) Profit
:D |
You may be right, good chance villain has a PP less than 9's. Here's hopin' (unless of course that PP was 5's or 2's)
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:00 pm GMT by zinn0
Ok, he bet $11 on the flop. I still wasn't sold that I was beat. I probably made a mistake here by just calling, but that's what I did...
call: zinn0 $11
Turn
2d 5h 5s 8c
BET Apex-X, $55
This is why I think smooth calling the flop was bad. It set me up for a big decision on the turn. I knew this was going to happen, and I smooth called anyway.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:55 pm GMT by TxShadow
| zinn0 wrote: | Ok, he bet $11 on the flop. I still wasn't sold that I was beat. I probably made a mistake here by just calling, but that's what I did...
call: zinn0 $11
Turn
2d 5h 5s 8c
BET Apex-X, $55
This is why I think smooth calling the flop was bad. It set me up for a big decision on the turn. I knew this was going to happen, and I smooth called anyway. |
I don't know that smooth calling the flop was bad. If you had gone over the top and re-raised and he pushed, would you really have felt comfortable going all-in with 99? I like the call there as you are getting good implied odds if you catch your set. Post flop with him betting out again and you not improving, I think you have to let it go.
What happened next???
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:34 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
| 1988 TR wrote: | | Dat_Dude wrote: | | You missed, fold the hand now. The only thing you can hope for in this spot is AK, which still might end up beating you. |
Huh? Missed? Outside of a 9 flopping, that is the best flop possible.
|
I have said in all my posts that I think he has a higher pocket pair than 9's, so yes, Zinn missed that flop meaning he didn't hit his set.
If zinn isn't putting him on a pair, then it is a great flop...but I would have been out a long time ago.
Just my $.02
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:08 pm GMT by Phil14312
Go with the read then Zinn, big stacks love to play like this when they think you are weak, and now since you only called the flop he thinks you are weak.
P.S. Just because someone may suck out on you is the worst reason ever to fold. If you don't understand you really must try.
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:31 pm GMT by TxShadow
So how the heck did this turn out?
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:38 pm GMT by zinn0
Ok, so on the turn, I was faced with the obvious decision for all of my chips. I recalled another hnd I had seen villain play in almost the exact same way as he has played this one, (except in that situation, he didn't limp reraise) and I really thought he was pushing out of desperation.
Again, I still thought he was full of BS. So I thought about it for a second and called.
River
2d 5h 5s 8c 10h
Apex X shows Kd Jd (a pair of fives)
zinn0 shows 9c 9h (two pair, nines and fives)
zinn0 wins $117 from pot.
This is one of the first times that I've went with my read and 'gut feeling' from the start of a hand until the finish. Donkish? I dunno. There is always a chance that someone has a higher PP than yours, but like others have said, if you play in fear that your opponent holds AA or KK everytime he pushes back at you, you're playing some weak poker.
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:05 pm GMT by tame_deuces
In your first post you said the guy played well and played mostly standard hands but had some crazy bluffs. But from the following posts I'm actually getting the impression of a table bully here, and in that case I push nines preflop.
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:23 pm GMT by 1988 TR
Right on - You got to go with what makes sense. Nice play, although I like pushing the flop better. An ace hits the turn, the guy bets again & now you probably fold.
Does limping in with 1010 through AA make sense? In most cases no. That is why I push the flop.
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:25 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Dat_Dude wrote: | | 1988 TR wrote: | | Dat_Dude wrote: | | You missed, fold the hand now. The only thing you can hope for in this spot is AK, which still might end up beating you. |
Huh? Missed? Outside of a 9 flopping, that is the best flop possible.
|
I have said in all my posts that I think he has a higher pocket pair than 9's, so yes, Zinn missed that flop meaning he didn't hit his set.
If zinn isn't putting him on a pair, then it is a great flop...but I would have been out a long time ago.
Just my $.02 |
Not sure why you put him on a big pocket pair, but that is your read.
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:26 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| TxShadow wrote: | | 1988 TR wrote: | | Dat_Dude wrote: | | You missed, fold the hand now. The only thing you can hope for in this spot is AK, which still might end up beating you. |
Huh? Missed? Outside of a 9 flopping, that is the best flop possible.
AK still might beat him? Good, so push your stack & make him pay for that 6 outer.
Personally, I think the guy has a low pocket pair & was trying to buy the pot pre-flop.
The beauty of it is, if you push now, I kind of think he will put you on a hand like AK & given his big stack, it is likely he will give you a call with his 44.
So in steps :
1) Push
2) Get a call
3) Dogde a 4 on the turn
4) Dodge a 4 on the river
5) Dodge a runner-runner straight
6) Profit
:D |
You may be right, good chance villain has a PP less than 9's. Here's hopin' (unless of course that PP was 5's or 2's) |
I give the guy enough credit to slow play quads or a full house on the flop, so I instantly discount 5's or 2's when he comes out betting $11. He comes out betting $1 and I am worried. lol
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:30 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Dat_Dude wrote: | | I would personally fold here. It may sound a little tight, but I have lost a lot of pots in the past from limp-reraisers. When I see this play now, I usually don't call without AA, KK, AK, or QQ SOME of the time. |
OK, I see why you are scared now.
I guess we have different experiences. I don't see this play all that often. When I see a limp re-raise, I more often see high cards or low pair - The kind of hand where a guy thinks he is 50/50 and wants to just take the pot down pre flop. This is especially true in cash games. In tournies, a limp raise can often mean a big pocket pair (At a full table) - Especially when the blinds have gotten high & there is always someone trying to steal.
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:50 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| 1988 TR wrote: | | Dat_Dude wrote: | | I would personally fold here. It may sound a little tight, but I have lost a lot of pots in the past from limp-reraisers. When I see this play now, I usually don't call without AA, KK, AK, or QQ SOME of the time. |
OK, I see why you are scared now.
I guess we have different experiences. I don't see this play all that often. When I see a limp re-raise, I more often see high cards or low pair - The kind of hand where a guy thinks he is 50/50 and wants to just take the pot down pre flop. This is especially true in cash games. In tournies, a limp raise can often mean a big pocket pair (At a full table) - Especially when the blinds have gotten high & there is always someone trying to steal. |
You play alot of shorthanded high stakes NL don't you?
I've only observed those games, bit above my bankroll. :D but they are generally mad aggressive compared to lower stakes games.
Posted Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:39 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| tame_deuces wrote: | | 1988 TR wrote: | | Dat_Dude wrote: | | I would personally fold here. It may sound a little tight, but I have lost a lot of pots in the past from limp-reraisers. When I see this play now, I usually don't call without AA, KK, AK, or QQ SOME of the time. |
OK, I see why you are scared now.
I guess we have different experiences. I don't see this play all that often. When I see a limp re-raise, I more often see high cards or low pair - The kind of hand where a guy thinks he is 50/50 and wants to just take the pot down pre flop. This is especially true in cash games. In tournies, a limp raise can often mean a big pocket pair (At a full table) - Especially when the blinds have gotten high & there is always someone trying to steal. |
You play alot of shorthanded high stakes NL don't you?
I've only observed those games, bit above my bankroll. :D but they are generally mad aggressive compared to lower stakes games. |
That is the cash games I play.
Play some tournies also.
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