Donked this hand at $50NL...how should i of played it? |
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Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:35 pm GMT by Magra
and fold pre-flop is not an option....
Getting Hand History Information...
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand #11535189-14284 at Woodmere (No Limit Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 15/Feb/06 19:36:04
Debo09 is at seat 0 with $69.05.
fatman787 is at seat 1 with $44.35.
jake56908 is at seat 2 with $65.10.
gar010 is at seat 3 with $28.50.
cooterman is at seat 4 with $6.20 (sitting out).
uncc1990 is at seat 5 with $12.35.
The button is at seat 4.
uncc1990 posts the small blind of $.25.
Debo09 posts the big blind of $.50.
Debo09: Ac 7h
fatman787: -- --
jake56908: -- --
gar010: -- --
uncc1990: -- --
Pre-flop:
fatman787 calls. jake56908 folds. gar010 raises to
$2.25. uncc1990 folds. Debo09 calls. fatman787
folds.
Flop (board: Jd Ad Tc):
Debo09 checks. gar010 bets $5.25. Debo09 calls.
Turn (board: Jd Ad Tc 6c):
Debo09 checks. gar010 bets $7. Debo09 calls.
River (board: Jd Ad Tc 6c 8s):
Debo09 checks. gar010 goes all-in for $14. Debo09
calls.
Showdown:
gar010 shows Qc Qh.
gar010 has Qc Qh Jd Ad Tc: a pair of queens.
Debo09 shows Ac 7h.
Debo09 has Ac Jd Ad Tc 8s: a pair of aces.
Hand #11535189-14284 Summary:
$2 is raked from a pot of $57.75.
Debo09 wins $55.75 with a pair of aces.
thanks for the help
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Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:49 pm GMT by Soup_dog
So how did you donk this up?
Based on his raise preflop I would put him on a pocket pair or two high cards. Once you make the call you have top pair but a lousy kicker. The question you need to ask at this point is whether or not he has an ace and higher kicker or QK.
The post flop bet tells me he already has a made hand or is trying to chase you out. So the question is, did you think he had it and are you willing to go broke on that read?
Apparently you said no he doesnt... and yes you are.
After you decide that, it's just a matter of letting him give you his money.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:03 pm GMT by TxShadow
Honestly, I probably would have folded to a 5xBB raise preflop with A7o depending on the table. But since you said that it wasn't an option...
Clearly you played this out like you liked your top pair, but were scared of perhaps a better kicker. You called his bets with a relatively unscary board and then when he pushed you did make the right call.
Though check-calling him all the way down ended up working, that can be a good way to let someone draw out on you when you only have a pair. I probably would have raised it up to represent the A, but that's just me.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:06 pm GMT by Soup_dog
| TxShadow wrote: | | Though check-calling him all the way down ended up working, that can be a good way to let someone draw out on you when you only have a pair. I probably would have raised it up to represent the A, but that's just me. |
True. And yes I probably would have folded to the original raise as well.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:09 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
Don't be a calling station. You should have made a move on the flop IMO. You have TPWK, but you have to find out if your hand is any good right now. You have little information about his holding the entire way, and personally that would bother the bleep out of me. It worked out OK in this hand because Villain probably put you on a diamond draw or even a straight draw, but if he was holding AQ, wouldn't you have been a little upset that you didn't find that out earlier and cheaper?
I would have either put a probe bet out there or check/raised him on the turn, and if he just calls then you MUST take the lead on the Turn.
Just my $.02
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:14 pm GMT by zinn0
Folding A7o preflop to a 5xBB raise is never a bad play. Never.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:12 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| Magra wrote: | | and fold pre-flop is not an option.... |
Why isn't that an option? Playing a weak hand OOP without being the aggressor will either lead to the situation you just found yourself in or it will lead to winning small pots. Yes this is 6-max, but you want to avoid certain situations still. I don't have a problem with open-raising 34s from utg in 6-max, but calling a raise with A7o I won't do. Esp. not OOP.
Make a note on the guy. People who don't slow down on turn with overcards on the board are the ones you want to play pocket pairs against. They are not the ones you want to play hands were you wonder if you are ahead against.
But you got to decide on the flop how far you are willing to go with that hand, because your stack may very well go in there. If you want to put your stack in, calling isn't horrible because villain may put you on a draw of sorts and may continue firing with hands you beat, esp with that heavy flop, but he will probably fold hands you beat to a raise. If you think you are beating villain, betting the river is probably a good idea.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:24 pm GMT by Phil14312
| tame_deuces wrote: | | But you got to decide on the flop how far you are willing to go with that hand, because your stack may very well go in there. If you want to put your stack in, calling isn't horrible because villain may put you on a draw of sorts and may continue firing with hands you beat, esp with that heavy flop, but he will probably fold hands you beat to a raise. If you think you are beating villain, betting the river is probably a good idea. |
Finally someone realizes that "finding out where you are at" in this hand will just lead to putting most of your stack in to find out. The only hands you are beating are bluffs, so induce, induce, induce.
A check/call line doesn't always mean weak-tight, raise, blah blah blah. Its all situational, and in this situation, I think if he is calling that pre-flop, he made the right line post-flop.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:49 pm GMT by TxShadow
| Phil14312 wrote: | | tame_deuces wrote: | | But you got to decide on the flop how far you are willing to go with that hand, because your stack may very well go in there. If you want to put your stack in, calling isn't horrible because villain may put you on a draw of sorts and may continue firing with hands you beat, esp with that heavy flop, but he will probably fold hands you beat to a raise. If you think you are beating villain, betting the river is probably a good idea. |
Finally someone realizes that "finding out where you are at" in this hand will just lead to putting most of your stack in to find out. The only hands you are beating are bluffs, so induce, induce, induce.
A check/call line doesn't always mean weak-tight, raise, blah blah blah. Its all situational, and in this situation, I think if he is calling that pre-flop, he made the right line post-flop. |
Referring to where you say that it's situational and that if he has decided to call a raise preflop, then he played it correctly post flop:
Would you be saying that he played it correctly post flop if he kept calling bets like that, eventually calling villain's all-in only to have villain flip over TT for a set?
I'm not arguing that it's not ever correct to let someone continue to bet into you and just calling them when you are reasonably sure you have the best hand. In fact a lot of times, that's the only way to get paid when you're holding a good one. But in my opinion, our hero wasn't sure about the strength of his hand (could be completely wrong, but that is the impression that I got).
Then again, I guess that's why I don't play A7o out of position to a preflop raise. I think that hero's play will lose money in the long run.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:07 pm GMT by Magra
About why folding pre-flop wasn't an action I wanted to hear:
I allready knew it was a bad call, and all that. I wanted to know that after that call, how could I improve my playing post-flop.
I was thinking of c/r the turn, but decided he would keep betting into me, so I took the chance.
Thanks for all the help folks, you can continue arguing now about the best play
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:30 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| TxShadow wrote: |
Referring to where you say that it's situational and that if he has decided to call a raise preflop, then he played it correctly post flop:. |
I wrote this:
| tame_deuces wrote: |
But you got to decide on the flop how far you are willing to go with that hand, because your stack may very well go in there. If you want to put your stack in.... . |
I'm not saying he played it correctly postflop and should go to showdown because he called preflop, I'm saying IF he decides to go to showdown this is a good line on this board, because our hand may look like something it isn't (a draw). This means our opponent may keep pumping hands we beat. If hero wants to fold, fold the flop.
| TxShadow wrote: |
Would you be saying that he played it correctly post flop if he kept calling bets like that, eventually calling villain's all-in only to have villain flip over TT for a set? |
If villain has KQo,AA,JJ,TT or AK is not important.
I'm not debating the correctness of the play. I'm debating that IF we decide to put our money in, calling is a good way to do it given the preflop action, the board texture and pot size, else we risk only getting action from hands that beat us, and our stack may still go in.
The morale of the story is that we don't play weak aces against raises when out of position. Because when we are in a situation like this, it will reduce the amount of hands we are behind too by...a ton.
You want a careful line? Bet half to 2/3 the pot on the flop when first to act. A horrible opponent might fold to that. A raise from him doesn't tell you anything.
A call however....a call gives you nightmares about the turn.
Calling can be awesome.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:48 pm GMT by TxShadow
Tame (and Phil as well),
Very good assessments, and I really can't argue with your logic. As I was finishing up my post, I thought about it and added the line:
| Quote: |
Then again, I guess that's why I don't play A7o out of position to a preflop raise. I think that hero's play will lose money in the long run.
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And I think we all agree, that about sums it up. When you play week hands like that out of position, you put yourself in situations where you're faced with not having near enough information and have that uncomfortable moment after the cards are dealt where you are waiting to see which direction the chips slide.
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:36 am GMT by Muck
| Magra wrote: |
I allready knew it was a bad call, and all that. I wanted to know that after that call, how could I improve my playing post-flop.
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I know you don’t want to hear fold pre-flop but it’s like someone saying “I know I’m on fire but I don’t want to hear about it, I want help with this chipped nail.”
If you’re going to take anything away with you from this thread it should be:
Don’t call raises out of position with potentially dominated junk.
As far as post flop play is concerned here are some thoughts:
You don’t have any practical draws so calling is a poor option, you need to decide if you’re behind and fold or ahead and raise.
You’re out of position so finding out anything is going to cost you. You’re also vulnerable to bluffs and continuation bets.
A big ace is a common raising hand and will have you dominated.
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