How can I get this maniac to play real poker? |
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Posted Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:48 pm GMT by chadderton
A couple of months ago I was infected by the poker virus. It came all of a sudden and I really got addicted. At first I started playing online poker; then I got some really nice poker chips and built my very own poker table! Together with a couple of friends I established a neat poker community.
We are a group of seven people meeting regularly about every two weeks, playing NL Hold'em with a Euro 10 (about $12) buy-in.We all seem to have a different style of playing poker, but one guy is definitely standing out. In my opinion both the terms "calling station" and "maniac" apply to this guy. He's playing the most aggressive style by far, usually hitting big pots at the beginning of each session. He's not afraid of putting in huge amounts of chips with a medium pair or two low pairs even when there are one or more overcards on the table.
Well, as you can imagine this guy has lost all his chips as the first player nearly each time. It was just three days ago when I flopped the nuts, played it slow (which most of the others recognized) and went all-in on the river. Despite having a medium pair only, this guy calls my all-in. I mean... i don't want to act as a teacher, but this guy needs to change the way he plays. We all like him a lot, but his playing style is disturbing. Not so much for the others, but for him. After losing his chips his mood naturally changes, and very soon thereafter he's leaving the place. That is very sad and I would like to work on that.
Do you have made similar experiences at your home game?
Please don't get me wrong... each player should play the way he wants to. But his style is plain stupid to a certain extent. After the hand I described above he even told me "I knew I was gonna lose, but so what?". In contrast he is VERY upset when being cracked. But show me a single player who isn't. The thing is... with taking just a little bit of advice this guy would NOT be eliminated as first player each time. But instead of listening he just gets angrier and makes stupid excuses (we increased the buy-in so he just bought half the amount of chips compared to all the others, but what does this have to do with calling an all-in with a crappy hand?).
We all like this guy and we don't want to lose him. But a feeling tells me he might not be sitting in the next time... it's just a gut feeling... but please help me. How can we calm this guy down and make him listen or at least make him play a less aggressive and self-destructing style of poker?
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Posted Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:14 pm GMT by zinn0
You don't want him to change his style. Trust me. My advice? Next time, have a cash (ring) game instead of a tourney.
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:23 pm GMT by Skribbles
| chadderton wrote: | | "I knew I was gonna lose, but so what?" |
Raise the buy-in. Obviously 10 euros is nothing to this guy so raise it up to a level he will take seriously. If none of the other players want to do this, then too bad for the shitty player.
The ring game suggestion is also good.
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:30 pm GMT by chadderton
| zinn0 wrote: | | You don't want him to change his style. Trust me. My advice? Next time, have a cash (ring) game instead of a tourney. |
I'm sorry for obviously not being clear enough: We DO play a cash (ring) game.
But why do you think I don't want him to change his style? Do you think he'll come back regardless of losing each time and throwing his money at us? I don't... but maybe I misinterpreted what you are trying to say.
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:34 pm GMT by chadderton
| Skribbles wrote: | | chadderton wrote: | | "I knew I was gonna lose, but so what?" |
Raise the buy-in. Obviously 10 euros is nothing to this guy so raise it up to a level he will take seriously. If none of the other players want to do this, then too bad for the shitty player.
The ring game suggestion is also good. |
He already complained about the bigger buy-in! This sounds ridiculous, but he's the only one who complained about raising the buy-in from Euro 5 to Euro 10. What I don't get... IF this buy-in is too much for him, why doesn't he change his style of play?
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:32 pm GMT by supafrey
Sounds like you just have a guy who is both strapped for cash and horrible at poker. It's not very complicated, but some people just don't get the game. Meh. Maybe he's not one for cards.
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:46 pm GMT by zinn0
| chadderton wrote: | | But why do you think I don't want him to change his style? Do you think he'll come back regardless of losing each time and throwing his money at us? I don't... but maybe I misinterpreted what you are trying to say. |
I'm saying the guys that 'throw their money at us' are the ones we make our money from. I personally wouldn't try and change anything about the way he plays.
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:05 pm GMT by tame_deuces
This is just a recreatinal nickle&dime game. I don't think the benefits from letting this guy keep playing badly outweighs the benefits from trying to ensure he has a good time.
Obviously these guys plays for fun, and one of them seems to be having a bad time. Teach him some poker, send him some links to quality articles on the net or borrow him a poker book.
If he doesn't want to learn more, then so be it.
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:23 pm GMT by snoogins47
| zinn0 wrote: | | You don't want him to change his style. Trust me. My advice? Next time, have a cash (ring) game instead of a tourney. |
Sometimes there's more to life than putting yourself in the most financially rewarding situations with no regard for anybody else. It's ten f*cking euros. If this was a game that our hero was relying on to pay the mortgage and the car payments, then we could get into the dark side of the moral dilemma.
Thread hijack time. Gather 'round, kiddies.
A fella I went to High School with who used to play with us in recreational homegames all the time... well, he had a 'unique' style. He had the mental abilities light-years beyond what would be required to play well. He didn't. He dropped buy in after buy in after buy in... when we were playing for $5 back years ago, and he was working for $8 an hour, we didn't think much of it. Losing $15 isn't the end of the world, right? We felt bad, but he's an adult, makes his own decisions, etc. etc. He can lose the same money as anybody else.
One it got to the point where dropped triple digits wasn't going to shock the world (Mostly only buying in for $20 at a time, but it was an action junkie game, and always ended up really deep), we started to worry. But even then, "well it sucks to see him like that, but ya know, it's only $40 here and there." We frequently talked to him about everything, and nothing really worked. There were times when we'd set a "limit" for him, and say "you're not rebuying." This probably would've degenerated into a fistfight a few times, if we didn't make it a point to say that we were acting as a whole group, instead of individually. Most of the time, it wouldn't work: he'd force himself back into the game.
By now, it started to really kill us. We loved having him around, because he was a friend of ours... but when he was losing, it was painful to watch. He would throw money around, complain about his awful luck, get unbelievable frustrated, and keep digging farther and farther in. We had many discussions about how we were going to deal with this: was it bad enough to stop inviting him? Was it bad enough to sit him down and have an "intervention?" When he was losing, he looked like he was having the worst possible time ever. The desperation, and evertyhing that went with it, killed. But still, it wasn't life changing money. Losing $50 in a night sucks, but hey.. there were even nights when he won, (and actually, there was a period where we did a little 'world series' knockoff, with buy ins from $10 up to $50, and he walked away from that about $500 or $600 richer)
Fast forward a bit, our friend has recently turned 21, and we know he's hit a casino once or twice, but he sorta jokes about how he had to go lose money since he was 21, etc. A few friends of mine are planning a trip to Windsor, to do some drinking, gambling, and everything else a bunch of college guys would want to do. They're very leery of letting him come with, but hey... this is a group of friends, right? They decide to bring him, on a few preset conditions. One of our friends gets to control his funds, which were X amount of dollars (not a whole lot, considering.. something like $500 or so), specifically for gambling, set aside, and released in smaller amounts only when the friend in control of the money saw fit. I was not going on this trip, since I had some prior commitment of some sort... I don't recall what. If I'm not mistaken, the friend in control of the finances was actually using HIS money. They were going to take all the IDs, credit cards, etc. away, and the money man was going to lend our friend money, which would subsequently be paid back after the trip.
Does this story have a happy ending? To tell the story with all the details would be overkill. I'll try to catch the gist of it.
Day 1: most of the aforementioned funds are lost. Some deception: our friend had told the group that he had no access to money, but had actually kept a bank-card on him. He ends up retiring early to the hotel room. The crew finds him in the hotel room, later, watching a pay per view movie and drinking. In the hours that follow, the wasted friend drops the bombshell of the truth: the number of times he had been to the casinos since his birthday was not "2 or 3," it was in the teens. The money lost, though I can't recall the precise figure he gave, was in the higher range of 4 digits, or lower range of 5. He was a friend of mine, but I wasn't that close with him, so I don't know exactly, but I was told that he had dealt with some injury at some point, and got a settlement to the tune of... well, roughly the amount he had lost since his birthday.
The group decides that they're going to cool it on the gambling. They decide to like, wake up the next day, grab some breakfast/lunch, go swimming, hang out, and that sort of thing. The next morning rolls around, and our friend wakes up before everybody else. He said that he had decided it would be best if he just went home (on an interesting note, it had turned out that he had completely lied to his parents about where he was going for the weekend, making up some nonexistent friend of a friend who had some cabin somewhere... despite how much freedom/responsibility we may or may not think a 21 year old should have, even if he still lives at home... a bold-faced lie is still weird... in fact, it's probably WEIRDER, since we have all indications that if he said "I'm going to Windsor, we're gonna hang out, go to the casino, etc" the parents would've said "Have fun, be careful, bye.") He had been one of the two drivers up there, so he had his car. The group agreed. They gave him his things (bank card, credit card, everything they had 'confiscated' from him on his blessing) and sent him on his way. One friend has a bit of a clever idea to add. Apparently, none of their cell phones were having any reception in the casino, and obviously, it's loud as hell. So, to make sure he is really leaving, they decide to make him call the room on his way out.
Well they get the call about 15 minutes later, it's quiet in the background, he says that he's in the parking garage. Satisfied, the group tries to snag a few more hours of sleep. They wake up later, shower, (this is hours later) and head down to the floor. One friend says "Is that X?" referring to the main character in this drama. The group thought he was making a stupid joke. He repeats himself... "No serious, I think that's him." Eye contact is made, and apparently a low-speed chase ensues for the next half hour or so. When they finally get to a point where X has nowhere to hide, he comes out with a bunch of chips in his hands and says "I'm sorry but look I won it all back, it's okay, here, I won it all back." As if his breaking even on the trip vindicated everything (And I actually think, though it doesn't matter much, that he was still a money loser for the weekend)
The moral of the story? Be tactful, but do NOT let any of this slide. It's not a big deal now, but there's a distinct possibility that his behavior illustrates a much larger issue. The stubbornness, learned helplessness, and everything else could be quite problematic. The sad part, though, is that there's really not a whole lot you can do: unless something changes big time, he's not gonna change his habits, and more importantly, he's not going to be able to relax and enjoy playing the game. My advice to you, even though the situation completely sucks, is to get your crew together and have a frank discussion with him. Maybe two or three. Tell him you're worried that he's never enjoying himself, and worried that he keeps throwing money away, even if it's only $5 here and there. Raising the buy in won't help anything: chances are, it'll just make his feelings of helplessness and anger more severe, and severely increase the negative effects of such behavior.
You probably don't have to worry too much about trying to make him keep showing up. You might, at some point, have to worry about how to keep him away.
This could merely be a kid who's stubborn and has fragile emotions. That's not a big deal. But if it's a larger problem that is beginning to rear its ugly head, the shittiness potential is unbelievably high. Talk to him.
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:51 pm GMT by Johny
Wow, Snoogins that really makes you realize how serious "small" gambling problems can become.
Chadderton, if you've put this much thought in this, than it seems like your friend might have a problem. Confront him about it to make sure he's ok. Do not raise the stakes, if he has a problem it will only get worse.
Poker < Friends
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:41 pm GMT by Buffarino
| snoogins47 wrote: | | Long, boring story |
No offense, snoogs, but you're what, 20? You've got a long life ahead of you where you'll learn that you will have friends do stupid crap, have self-destructive behavior (whether it's gambling, drinking, drugs, women, jobs, etc.) and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, other than be a good friend, talk to him and not contribute to his downfall. Your friend has a problem but you can't solve it. He has to come to terms with it and fix it himself. Then again, he might be one of those people who never fixes it. Either way, he has to live his own life and be responsible for his actions. All you can do is be a good friend and not push him further down the road. Any lectures from you will likely only piss him off. I'm not saying don't say anything to him, but constant lectures will likely alienate him.
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:01 pm GMT by snoogins47
Thanks for your input. I'm impressed at how well you pretend to make a point that contradicts mine.
| WiseOldOwl wrote: | | You've got a long life ahead of you where you'll learn that you will have friends do stupid crap, have self-destructive behavior (whether it's gambling, drinking, drugs, women, jobs, etc.) and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, other than be a good friend, talk to him and not contribute to his downfall. Your friend has a problem but you can't solve it. |
| NaiveLittleKid47 wrote: | | The sad part, though, is that there's really not a whole lot you can do: unless something changes big time, he's not gonna change his habits... Talk to him. |
I really admire the condescension though. It looks good on you.
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:11 pm GMT by tame_deuces
One could probably do something along the lines of screaming 'Seriously man! You're addicted to gambling. I'm staying here and tomorrow we're seeing someone. Give me the phone number to closest place that deliver pizzas.'
No, it isn't fullproof, and it might not even work...but in many issues some action will do more than words. Sometimes words are overrated.
Apart from that, I think this thread is severly hijacked.:D
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:12 am GMT by supafrey
I dunno guys. It's fun to be paternalistic about these sort of things, but I wonder how we'd all be if we were in their shoes. I mean, I'm stubborn and have rebought each and everytime I've gone bust from a site. While this has turned out well for me, and I've made money overall, I wonder if I'd be pumping it all back in just the same if I was a habitual loser, instead.
Probably.
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:33 am GMT by wEbMaStEr
Some people, my brother being one, just don't want to listen. he is a losing player and has been playing (recreationally) for about 2 years now. I see real potential and think that with a few minor changes (particularly in terms of patience) he could be up there with me.
But Whenever i try to tell him this he sees it as a lecture and gets mad at me for being "patronising" 
patronising? moi?  I'm just trying to help the sucker.
Then again, i tend to be the same whenever he tries to help me with my golf swing 
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:50 am GMT by supafrey
That reminds me.
My bro is 30ish and has a steady job. He plays online for like.. 4 times my stakes, with about 1/30th of my experience. He basically just slowly bleeds, but has now probably lost more money than I have in my entire BR. I've tried giving him tips, but nothing short of telling him to stop would work because he's convinced there "isn't too much separating a good player from a bad one"....
=/
what can you do.
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:53 pm GMT by zeroswarm
This guys poor play and somewhat odd behaviour at the poker table probably has NOTHING to do with poker/gambling atall.
I think Snoogins hinted that it could be something of a wider issue that is driving his self destructive urge.
My advice would be to try and find out if there is some unrelated problem that is bothering him.
Bear in mind that poker plays on your emotions at a very high level. For someone who is having serious problems in another area of life the ups and downs of a game of hold em (whatever the buy in) can often simply highlight and magnify any serious "real" problems you may be having.
Posted Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:35 am GMT by markusgc
| wEbMaStEr wrote: | | Then again, i tend to be the same whenever he tries to help me with my golf swing |
Good analogy. But while I sometimes don't take advice well (though I'm working on it - I'm here aren't I?) usually I try it out as soon as they aren't looking!
Posted Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:03 pm GMT by chadderton
| tame_deuces wrote: | This is just a recreatinal nickle&dime game. I don't think the benefits from letting this guy keep playing badly outweighs the benefits from trying to ensure he has a good time.
Obviously these guys plays for fun, and one of them seems to be having a bad time. Teach him some poker, send him some links to quality articles on the net or borrow him a poker book.
If he doesn't want to learn more, then so be it. |
Yes, we do play for fun! At the beginning we had no intention to install some kind of buy-in. But we learned one thing for sure: Playing without any financial commitment leads to most of the players getting very loose, which is absolutely logical. So we decided to have a small buy-in, just to make sure playing too loose hurts (at least a bit). Obviously this was a good decision. All of us - except maybe the guy I talk about - seem to be comfortable with it although a few of us haven't won a single cent since. Because we PLAY FOR FUN for the most part!
Concerning your advice to teach this guy poker: The problem is, he doesn't like to listen to people that much in general. He can become quite ignorant from time to time. So it's pretty hard for us to talk to him about his play. Nonetheless I don't want to give up on him. He is a good boy, and I think he too should enjoy playing with us - and not always leave with a sad aftertaste.
| snoogins47 wrote: | | My advice to you, even though the situation completely sucks, is to get your crew together and have a frank discussion with him. Maybe two or three. Tell him you're worried that he's never enjoying himself, and worried that he keeps throwing money away, even if it's only $5 here and there. Raising the buy in won't help anything: chances are, it'll just make his feelings of helplessness and anger more severe, and severely increase the negative effects of such behavior. |
I agree with you completely here! That's exactly what I will try to do: Have a discussion with him aside the poker table. I will try to make him realize we're serious about this: We don't want him to have a bad time whenever we play poker, even if that means one or two of us will lose a bit more money here and there.
| Johnny4444 wrote: | | Poker < Friends |
Enough said.
| zeroswarm wrote: | This guys poor play and somewhat odd behaviour at the poker table probably has NOTHING to do with poker/gambling atall.
I think Snoogins hinted that it could be something of a wider issue that is driving his self destructive urge.
My advice would be to try and find out if there is some unrelated problem that is bothering him.
Bear in mind that poker plays on your emotions at a very high level. For someone who is having serious problems in another area of life the ups and downs of a game of hold em (whatever the buy in) can often simply highlight and magnify any serious "real" problems you may be having. |
Good post! I already thought about this, keep in my mind what I stated earlier: He always has a hard time giving in, be it a discussion about any kind of topic or the way he plays poker. Maybe there's much more to it. I will keep on thinking about it...
Posted Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:10 pm GMT by UrAteUp
You know I read this whole post all the way through. I don't think I would preach to my friend about his losing. Honestly if the guy is level headed then don't worry about this progressing into anything more. It's 10 Eros and if you ask me for a night of entertainment that is pretty darn cheap.
Back when I was 16 (don't say it Zinno, I am only 37 now) I used to play poker quite often. Well I started playing with some people who knew how to play better then I did. I would play with them on average of 2 times a week for about $10-$20 per game. It never developed into anything as bad as Snoogins described because I knew I wouldn't let it because I was level headed and playing poker for $10 at a time 2 nights a week was sure cheaper then going out and doing the other things I could have done.
So if your friend is loosing on 10 eros a game once a week then don't worry about it. You can offer to help him or give him advice and teaching help. If he refuses then nothing you can do about that. Your only going to get good at something when you put your mind into learning it or you spend enough money buying lessons 10 eros at a time. The important thing is make it fun for everyone. It isn't about the 10 eros it is more about the fun times with good friends.
Posted Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:34 am GMT by Cyberhwk
Yeah, sounds like your dude either shouldn't be playing because he can't handle the buy-in, or is just really frustrated with trying to understand the game.
Do you know if he's attempted to learn how to play "properly" and just doesn't know how or is he trying to be Super-LAG?
I know some suggested you just keep fleecing him for all he's worth but I'm not one to do that. I might pull him aside and ask him what his problem is, if he's having fun. If something is really bothering him then he'll probably let you know. If he can't afford the buy-in I might seriously tell him that if he can't afford it, he probably shouldn't play. Be sure to let him know there's no hard feelings though, as he could probably precieve this as getting bounced from the game, and not for his own good.
Posted Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:25 am GMT by Hungry4Knowledge
Well... Gambling problems isnt easy! At the age of 14 i lost 1000$ playing slot machines... That was about 40% of my whole bank account! One day i had lost 2-300$ i was feeling really down, and then instead of getting on the bus home i walked. I walked 25 kilometers and 3-4 hours later i came home and decided to never play a slot machine again. It didnt do me very much harm since im from a home with good steady economy, but it had the possibility to turn into something more then just a small adiction. Poker is acctually something that helped me stop playing slotmachines! I learned that you never got the pot-odds on your side playing the slots! I dont look upon poker as gambling, and i think thats why i beat my homegame. The players in my homegame plays thinking that they need to get lucky. I play thinking i have to make correct decitions.... Online poker though is an easier game to get addicted to. Its more hands, more action and for many players more exitement. I dont play online anymore because im a much better live-player because of my ability to read people.... You cant win in the long run just gambling, you have to play the game! There is a guy in my homegame losing 2-3 buy-ins every night.... His a calling station and always ends up observing the last hour of the game! Some people doesnt understand the concept of the game and therefore wont become winning players!
Posted Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:46 pm GMT by BeerWench13
Wow.
As a psych major in college, I learned a great deal about self-abusive behavior. I don't think your friend falls into this category. I think his main problem is pride and being a sore loser (usually one in the same). He doesn't want you to tell him what he did wrongly in the hand after he's lost. Who does? I know I don't. A smart person can usually figure that out on their own. He also doesn't want to change his playing style. This, I believe, is a pride issue. If he starts playing differently because you told him to do so, then he basically is saying that you're better than he is or your "style" of play is right and his is not. No one with a large amount of pride will do this willingly. It's basically and admission that he is wrong.
Is he the type of guy who really gets down on himself when he makes a mistake? I'm not referring to poker, but other things, such as forgetting to pick you up from the airport, or being late for work/school? If so, he's just borderline OCD. There's nothing wrong with him he's just stubborn and prideful and doesn't want to admit it when he's wrong.
I know this because I am this way. It is a constant struggle on a daily basis to be able to admit when I am wrong. I have since learned that instead of trying to find an excuse for your mistakes, it's best to just own up to them. Crow is much easier to eat when it is still warm.
My suggestion with your friend is, as long as he can afford to do so, let him learn his lessons at the table. So his style is different than yours. Maybe he's a better tournament player or he's seen more tournament play (i.e. WSOP, WPT, etc.) and thinks this style is the way to play in cash games also. I wouldn't talk to him about the way he plays until he asks the question that every poker player who loses consistantly asks..."What am I doing wrong that I can't seem to win?" There's your opening. Then you can suggest that perhaps he plays more patiently, sees fewer hands, drinks less at the table, or suggest a different style of play for him to try.
I had a guy like this in the group in which I play on a regular basis. One night we were outside having a smoke after he'd gone broke again that night and he asked that question. I suggested that he try playing hands that only totalled 19-21 or pocket pairs preflop. And, to expound on it, I said that he should raise the same amount (3xBB) with cards that totalled 20+ or pairs 9's or higher. I basically said it could be fun for him to try and that I would move to the other table so that I wasn't playing with him knowing his strategy. It worked! He walked away up $350 that night. I got a big hug from him and a "Thanks for the advice. I realize that I was just being too impatient."
The moral of the story is that I didn't tell him that he was being too impatient so when he came to the conclusion himself, it didn't hurt his pride. To be honest, I wish I hadn't helped him now. He's one of the better players in our group.
Wait for him to ask for help, then make small simple suggestions that are baby steps to him playing a better game. He'll be more open to your suggestions and will thank you later.
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