Should I have laid down Big Slick (preflop) to an all in. |
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Posted Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:43 pm GMT by Implied_Odds
Early in a no limit tounement at a full table. I'm under the gun and see AK, I raise the $50 blind to $300. Player 2 calls and Player 3 goes all in. I call the all in as well as Player 2.
Me: AK
Player 2: QQ
Player 3: 99
The queens hold up and Player 3 triples up. Should I have laid down Big Slick (preflop) to the all in? I think its a better hand to 2 all ins vs. 1 because you have a 1:1 shot to hit your draw on a 3:1 pot. What are your thoughts?
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Posted Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:56 pm GMT by AHBrownell
Well I don't know if I would call there. You made a big raise! 6x the BB! And then you were called --- and then the next player reraised all-in! To me you are in a typical sandwhich situation that I would be terrified to be in. I don't know how many chips you had - so maybe you pretty much had to call, but generally I would have played this hand a bit differently.
I usually raise to 3x the BB UTG; 4x if I am in late position. 6x seems a bit excessive. If you are beat you are pretty much pot committed if you have anything under 900 chips and are put all-in. If you had bet 150 and had been reraised all-in then that is a easy fold for me unless I know this opponent is a maniac. You got a pretty good hand to be up against considering how bad it could have been - AA or KK and your dead.
The other problem I see with the hand is that if you call here you might have the first guy beat (you cannot know that though), but now the next player may have been trapping and he might also have you beat!
Overall I would much rather commit 1/6 to 1/7 of my stack rather than 1/3 even with a hand as good as AK. I don't like coin flip plays very much for this very reason. Its like Negraneau always says - you cannot lose a tournament if you never go all-in against a bigger stack. 
Anyway, that is a tough position your faced with once you bet that first amount. I would have a hard time folding once I have a 1/3 of my chips in the pot with AK in my hand - even though its the safer play. Ugh. The correct play here is debatable imo.
All I'm trying to say is you want to give yourself easier decisions - try to avoid making plays that will make future decisions much more difficult.
Personally, I'd wait for AA or KK to push all-in "early" in a tournament. If you have a hand like AK you want to be RAISING not calling. GL HF
Posted Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:03 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Early in a tournament I probably lay this down right here because the blinds are usually quite low compared to the overall stack sizes. Later in a tournament, I like situations like this with AK because you're getting stellar odds, you can see all 5 cards, and you're highly unlikely to be dominated.
However, depending on the total size of each stack, this may have been a good move.
I also think 6x BB was a little too big for a raise. I'd like to raise about 4x the BB here.
Posted Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:10 pm GMT by Implied_Odds
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. The reason why I raised so aggressive because the tournement was a $30 buy-in and people at this level will call just about anything. The $300 raise limits the field and I get good expectations with my hand. Ecspecially for those guys that will play any Ace and get attached to it like most do at this level.
But to be honest, I like your ideas better, xDiamond_CutteRx, AHBrownell. Because we all started with $2000 in chips and it was really early in the game (about 10 mins). Maybe in the later rounds or more short stacked. But if I had pocket kings, I would probably raise 6x's the blind against this crowd and hope to get an all-in.
Posted Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:29 am GMT by markusgc
Remember, the reason you play is to get the other folks' chips. If you do your best to prevent them from putting them in, then you won't get any.
If people call your A K with any Ace, good for you. If someone in later position w/a pocket pair wants to put you to a test for all your chips, you'll come to appreciate that position is a big advantage. Early on, w/AK, tough call. Depends on your opponents. Me, I probably wouldn't end my night early on a drawing hand.
Just make a note of the guy who would gamble like that and take advantage of it down the road. When you've got rockets, do the same thing. He might have KK or even AK. Then you've got him.
But I agree, if you don't have a hand that you're not willing to take to the felt, don't commit so many of your chips in early position, and even if you do - let someone else do it first, that way you've probably got the lead, and if you don't, you can let it go...
Posted Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:22 am GMT by Jauron
Most of the time EARLY in the tourny it's an underpair, and most of the time I fold my AK.
I have to put them on a weaker ace to want to call this early on...unless you do I'd suggest a fold.
No point flipping a coin this early, even if you win you are a LOOONG way from the money. When you go to that coin flip later, it's because winning that flip will put you in position to win or survive, not because you like fliping coins.
As others have said, don't raise so much early on either, as you've said people don't like to fold, why invest yourself so heavily into a pot that is not worth taking down yet? Make the standard raise and prepare to release it if you miss, it's early and people are crazy as hell. AK is not the monster you think it is early, and it's not a calling hand to a healthy stack FOR YOUR STACK.
Posted Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:42 am GMT by tame_deuces
| Implied_Odds wrote: | | Early in a no limit tounement at a full table. I'm under the gun and see AK, I raise the $50 blind to $300. Player 2 calls and Player 3 goes all in. I call the all in as well as Player 2. |
What were the stack sizes? It matters alot here.
Posted Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:45 am GMT by UrAteUp
He mentions it was early on Tamed with 2000 chips starting, so his stack size had to be good still. Personally I often lay down AK in early position to a big riase or all-in push. If I am EP and want to go all in then I am doing it with a large PP such as AA,KK or sometimes even QQ. As someone else said, I like the made hand to call an all-in from EP.
Posted Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:52 am GMT by kingetje
I folded AK today against a re-re-raise at a $10 NL talbe... against 6-6 and Q-Q... pair of queens won... i WOULD have taken it down as an Ace landed on the flop 
Posted Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:58 am GMT by UrAteUp
| kingetje wrote: | | I folded AK today against a re-re-raise at a $10 NL talbe... against 6-6 and Q-Q... pair of queens won... i WOULD have taken it down as an Ace landed on the flop |
What position where you in when you got the AK?
Posted Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:02 am GMT by Soup_dog
| kingetje wrote: | | I folded AK today against a re-re-raise at a $10 NL talbe... against 6-6 and Q-Q... pair of queens won... i WOULD have taken it down as an Ace landed on the flop |
You can't let those kind of thoughts get you upset. You made the right play. But I must admit it drives me crazy too. I"m trying to learn to let these things slide. Last night I missed a huge pot by laying down a nut gutshot str8 draw inthe face of two huge reraises. Naturally the next card would have given it to me.
It's not only about the cards, it's also about the situation. You need the right combination of cards, bets and opponents to win a hand.
Posted Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:07 am GMT by kingetje
| UrAteUp wrote: | | kingetje wrote: | | I folded AK today against a re-re-raise at a $10 NL talbe... against 6-6 and Q-Q... pair of queens won... i WOULD have taken it down as an Ace landed on the flop |
What position where you in when you got the AK? |
hmm i dont remember fully, but the big stack at the table was the one holding QQ and he limped, then i bet like 6XBB then the man after me raised me and the limper re-raised very big.... then i folded and the guy next to me called and was all in.
Posted Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:07 pm GMT by Implied_Odds
What if I had Pocket Queens vs. Big Slick
Whould you call the all-in or fold. Only 2 hands dominate you and only one has a decent chance to out draw you. I think I would make the call here. Pocket jacks would probably be a bad call, ya think.
I got another question by the way. Would raise more with pocket jacks in EP vs. Big Slick? You would hate for somebody to out draw you with a KJ suited or A10 to a higher pair. Would 6x's the blind be ideal for Jacks?
Posted Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:56 pm GMT by BeerWench13
Firstly, I want to say that I hate AK with a passion and, to date, it has been the most costly hand for me. I think it is overrated.
With that said, I wouldn't raise at all UTG with big slick early in a SNG. I would limp and see what happens behind me. Before you all go crazy on me, let me explain my reasons for this.
1. It's early in the tournament so there are more players at the table meaning that the odds of someone having a big PP are higher than if there were fewer players at the table.
2. You're in horrible position. If you raise and get 2+ callers and the flop comes 2 6 9 what do you do then? You're first to act.
3. It's easier to make a decision for how much that hand is worth if you get to gauge what a player has based on the amount of his bet. Meaning, a player with a big hand is going to reraise you and then you have to decide how "pot committed" you are to call with this hand if you raise first. But, if you limp, they are put to decide the amount of the raise and, therefore, will give you more information regarding their hand by the amount that they raise.
4. No one will put you on this hand, so if the flop goes favorably for you, you can take down a monster and, in later hands, when you limp from early position, they'll think twice about what you may be playing. (I'm assuming that not all of the players at the table are complete donks.)
5. It's easy to get away from this hand if you miss if you don't have a huge portion of your stack invested.
I would see what the bet is after limping. If it's a weak bet and everyone else folds to you or you feel that the raise that is made is a position bet, you have more information on which to base your play and can come over the top and possibly take the hand down preflop. It's no different than a check raise on the flop.
Having done what you did, and trying not to be results oriented, I would've had to fold this with two other players pushing. It's too early to risk my stack against two hands. Besides, AK is a cursed hand for me so I would let them battle it out. Also, they're both all-in so you get to see what they raised with without having to pay for it. More information for later.
JMO, of course. There is no right or wrong way to play any hand, it all depends.
Posted Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:46 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| UrAteUp wrote: | | I like the made hand to call an all-in from EP. |
What difference does your position make if you're all-in?
Posted Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:59 pm GMT by Hungry4Knowledge
vs. 2 players big slick isnt to good.... You was lucky you were up against 2 pocket pairs though.... You shoud expect being up against another A-K or a high pair. What if you were up against another A-K AND a pair of queens? Then you would have 4 outs for a split pot.... This is one of the few cases i would lay down A-K (Unless the odds were very good)
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