Posted Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:49 am GMT by Dat_Dude
Live Tournament hand. Early stages, I am up to about 2900 after starting with 2500. Blinds 50/100.
Hero is UTG: A  K 
Hero makes it $400 to go.
Button (~2400 in chips) calls $400 while everyone else folds.
Flop:
K  Q T
Hero bets out $600.
Villain Raises to $1200.
Hero????
Now Villain seems to be a pretty solid player, so I put him on a decent hand. Since it was early, I didn't get much of a chance to see the hands he has shown down, if he had any.
Should I call, knowing that there is a good chance the rest of his stack is going in regardless of the turn card? Should I push and hope my TPTK is good or at least hope to catch a straight card or trip up? Should I just toss the hand away now?
I am interested in hearing your opinions. If I had a massive chip lead over him, it might have been an easier call, but I would have been short stacked after this if I lost.
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Posted Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:14 pm GMT by zinn0
The first thing I do once he raises, is think about what range of hands will Villain smooth call from the button here. Call me weak/tight, but I'm leaning towards folding for some reason. I smell KQ.
Posted Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:14 pm GMT by UrAteUp
I think I have to agree with Zinno here. A pre-flop call of 400 chips could put this guy on a slew of hands. KK, QQ, AJ and 1010 (if he was loose then consider the 1010) are all possible he might come in on. I do not feel he would raise here with TPTK.
Posted Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:16 pm GMT by lwestatbus
| zinn0 wrote: | | The first thing I do once he raises, is think about what range of hands will Villain smooth call from the button here. Call me weak/tight, but I'm leaning towards folding for some reason. I smell KQ. |
This is the real gut-check time between Limit and No-Limit. In Limit (which I play) I'd call this down since jack gives me nut straight and because a lot of players will bluff at a scary board. I might adjust based on this player's history (which you note isn't available to you). BTW: How much of YOUR play has this guy seen?
AJ, KQ, KT, and even QT suited are all hands someone could play and that beat you now. Dammifino what to do. What happened?
Posted Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:23 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Well one thing is for sure... you have to call his raise right here. You need to wait for the turn to figure out what to do, because min-raises are just retarded... he put you to no decision, so you have to call now just to see if you spike something good. If you hit a J or an A on the turn, I would bet again and see what he does. If an A falls and he raises again, I'd be pretty sure he has the J. If a J falls, then you have the nuts anyway.
To tell you the truth, I might call and bet again no matter what comes just to test him out. Some people think min-raises will steal the pot all day, and then run away confused when someone bets into them again. If he just smooth calls on the turn, he probably has a hand he suspects may be good, but wants to see a showdown cheap.
On the turn though, if he raises or calls, it's time to give up on betting your way to a win and hope that you hit a J for a split or a win.
Of course, given the amount of chips you have, some people might advise you to fold here and wait for a better spot, but you're well into the Yellow Zone now and may have to gamble sooner or later.
Posted Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:42 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | Well one thing is for sure... you have to call his raise right here. |
I can't imagine calling here is any good unless you're planning to open push the turn regardless of what falls. Hero will be at 1200 after calling, and there are very few cards that could come on the turn that make his decision any easier. It's not just a min-raise. It's a min-raise with the implication he's gonna have to spend the rest to see the river.
edit: I misread stack size, although I still think calling is bad.
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | Of course, given the amount of chips you have, some people might advise you to fold here and wait for a better spot, but you're well into the Yellow Zone now and may have to gamble sooner or later. |
Push or fold the flop. I'm fine with either line.
Posted Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:47 pm GMT by Soup_dog
Basically you need to decide if your willing to risk your entire stack on this hand right now. If you call you can bet you will be "all-in" after the turn... or crippled. Based on your read of the other guy I would say it's time to give it up. There are too many hands that can beat you. Sure you could suck it out, but do you want to count on that?
Posted Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:46 pm GMT by supafrey
I'd push and pray, most likely. I'd put good money that the hands that will be flipped will be a KJ, QJ, or JT more often than not. I think you're in good here.
Posted Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:46 am GMT by Dat_Dude
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | Well one thing is for sure... you have to call his raise right here. |
OK. So say I do call this raise. Do I call the raise with the INTENT of pushing on the turn, no matter what falls? Wouldn't it be a pretty weak play to just call and then check the turn?
Posted Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:50 am GMT by Soup_dog
| Dat_Dude wrote: | | xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | Well one thing is for sure... you have to call his raise right here. |
OK. So say I do call this raise. Do I call the raise with the INTENT of pushing on the turn, no matter what falls? Wouldn't it be a pretty weak play to just call and then check the turn? |
If you are planning on calling at this point I would go ahead and push all-in. Or at least call and then push "all-in" on the turn, no matter what falls.
Posted Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:48 pm GMT by Jauron
He has 800 back, all in of fold time. Only call if you think you are ahead, not likely.
It's a tough spot, but if he has KQ, QT, KT you are getting priced in pretty well to push it in, too bad it's for nearly your stack.
I think I push here, and hope he doesn't show trips or J9 so I have 7 good outs.
Posted Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:53 pm GMT by Lejcii
I have World Class Poker with TJ Cloutier and there is same example...TJ sad fold. But Im not sure what I did if i were you.
Posted Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:50 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | min-raises are just retarded. |
I know I quoted this out of a larger context, and it is not a critizism of your post or anything like that, just a general reflection on the subject.
Min-raises can be gold. Most people don't fold a strong hand to a min-raise when you happen to sit on a monster, because alot of people tend to forget what calling or raising that min-raise will mean for the pot size on later streets, so they probably have to call of their entire stack. Its sort of reverse pot control.
I agree with you that the minraise is a miss-used thing in NL, and there are many occasions where using it is very unsuitable but it defintively has its place as a pot-bloater versus unsophisticated opponents when you hit a monster.
Posted Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:58 am GMT by lwestatbus
???? Well....What happened?
Posted Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:08 pm GMT by BeerWench13
Push or fold. My gut smells either AJ or KQ. The smooth call preflop followed by the min-raise is what bothers me and makes me think I'm beaten here. If he'd have raised more, I wouldn't think twice about pushing. That min-raise seems like a bleeder bet to me. Of course, without any knowledge of how villain plays, it's a tough decision.
Posted Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:19 pm GMT by MasterShake
| Lejcii wrote: | | I have World Class Poker with TJ Cloutier and there is same example...TJ sad fold. But Im not sure what I did if i were you. |
Is that avatar TJ Cloutier or Albert Brooks?
Posted Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:46 am GMT by Drae
First post. Apologies if I am saying stuff that seems obvious to the experienced guys.
From the description, guy is tight solid. I am assuming your table image is not too loose. Given this, what would he call 20% of his stack with exactly? I can’t see him calling with AJs KQs (or less). Given his playing style, he would have to be pretty damn sure you are stealing to call with those sorts of hands. If he does not think you are stealing, then surely he folds those hands, because he has to figure he is on coin-flip or dominated
Therefore, I would be worried he is on AA KK and maybe (maybe) JJ TT.
I am struggling to see why the mini-raise is such a bad bet if he is on JJ. Calling it pot commits Hero, therefore it is virtually the same as if he pushed all-in. If he is on JJ and making a cheap semi-bluff for the pot it makes sense (I think). Particularly if he has a good read on your hand and thinks he can make you fold.
Sure, if he is on AA KK (or even TT) it is a weird way to play it. But I am struggling to get past the thoughts about the pre-flop. I think I would fold and try to come back from 1.5 short stack.
Posted Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:58 am GMT by TxShadow
I'd probably lay it down. Looks like you're up against a set or 2 pair. He may have even flopped the straight.
Posted Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:06 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
Sorry it took me so long to respond with the results.
Well, they aren't really that interesting.
I sat and stared at him for a good minute or two and he looked a little too comfortable for my liking. I mucked and the look he gave was one of those "Dammit, I really wish you had called that".
I put him on KQ because I truly feel if he had a PP he would have come over the top preflop. My feeling was confirmed as he raised someone later All In with TT and was knocked out by AQ.
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