Break it down...dummy boat |
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Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:59 am GMT by KingOHearts
***** Hand History for Game 3664224573 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, March 04, 01:52:26 ET 2006
Table Baynton (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 10: RJGuyot ( $25 )
Seat 6: ADK_Rick ( $28.45 )
Seat 2: ThomasNg22 ( $80.78 )
Seat 8: farrenbu ( $25.12 )
Seat 4: rabbitsfoot_ ( $38.20 )
Seat 9: ZEHER ( $24.50 )
Seat 5: IamWeasel420 ( $3.90 )
Seat 3: PittBull386 ( $25.20 )
Seat 1: River_ACErat ( $24.75 )
Seat 7: bonzhowe ( $11.75 )
River_ACErat posts small blind $0.10.
ThomasNg22 posts big blind $0.25.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADK_Rick 8 8
PittBull386 folds.
rabbitsfoot_ folds.
IamWeasel420 raises $0.50.
ADK_Rick calls $0.50.
bonzhowe calls $0.50.
farrenbu folds.
ZEHER folds.
River_ACErat folds.
ThomasNg22 calls $0.25.
** Dealing Flop ** 8 J J
ThomasNg22 checks.
IamWeasel420 bets $0.60.
ADK_Rick ?? Pot is $2.70
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Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:06 am GMT by tame_deuces
Hands like these are so incredibly dependant on your opponents in the hand, so there are absolutely no definitive answers on how to play them. Depending on if your opponent is aggro, calling or weak they have to be played completely differently.
The more clever villain is the harder you can play, because then he'll know that you know that alot of hands you can hold will be good here...bah...its a confusing world.
As a default vs an unknown I throw in nicely sized raise though. Not big enough to scare away OPs, not low enough to seem suspicious. Too bad your opponent fired a completely ridiculous bet here. But I play all my hands fast, I never see the point in playing stuff slow, its boring and ensures small pots.
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:07 am GMT by age_of_sages
I either call and wait to raise the turn or I get really sneaky and min raise hoping for a reraise
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:15 am GMT by Muck
You’ve got position on the raiser and you’re a 75% favourite even if he has a Jack, I’d say that’s good for a slow play. I’d call then bet/raise the Turn.
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:49 am GMT by zinn0
check/call the flop, check raise the turn...lead the river.
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:17 am GMT by KingOHearts
Much agreement, and I like Muck's statement ...the simple fact that I was a 75% fave.
So here is what yours truly did.
ADK_Rick raises $3.20.
bonzhowe calls $3.20.
ThomasNg22 folds.
IamWeasel420 is all-In $2.80
ADK_Rick calls $0.20.
bonzhowe calls $0.20.
** Dealing Turn ** 3
ADK_Rick ? pot is $12.30
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:30 am GMT by tame_deuces
Naturally I love the raise! :D
Now look at that nice, big pot! Much better than a small measly 4$ pot!
Your opponent doesn't have too big a stack. I'd lead for half and upwards of what he has left in his stack, half if he chases alot, more if he may have a proper hand.
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:44 am GMT by KingOHearts
Here is where the train goes off the track for me...I am seeing monsters in the closet (which I do much less than I used to, but on this hand.....) Two callers? One of them *has* to have the J.
ADK_Rick checks.
bonzhowe bets $7.01.
ADK_Rick ? pot is $19.31
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:54 am GMT by tame_deuces
The J is a wonderful card for you, unless someone also paired their kicker or have two Js they are drawing very slim against your full house, and they'll probably pay you off.
He's all in now, isn't he? Call. :D
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:55 am GMT by zinn0
You want someone to have a J here. Push.
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:06 am GMT by KingOHearts
Edited for complete stupidity on the part of the orig poster. Christ.
Sorry.
Yeah, well Mr. Tighty Whitey didnt see it that way, all I could see was my stack evaporating when someone flips the bigger boat. "A fold is only a small mistake" and "It's not my job to keep the table honest". Sigh
ADK Rick folds.
** Dealing River ** 5
I know, you're all out there screaming Nooooooooooooo
So what did villians have?
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:12 am GMT by tame_deuces
*edited*
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:12 am GMT by KingOHearts
Damn, I was hoping you wouldnt quote me......
Here is what my sleep deprived brain was thinking last night, and was still thinking this morning.... 
A J means a bigger boat. Which of course it doesnt unless he pairs up. I cant explain why my brain completely disconnected on this hand, and in fact even this morning was still on shutdown. I'm sorry I started this thread!
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:16 am GMT by tame_deuces
I have yet to meet a Hold'Em player who hasn't done this or the related 'omg! His trips beat my set' mistake on paired boards at some point. No worries. You only do it once anyway. 
I almost folded quads tens once because I figured my damn opponent just hit the boat. :D
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:16 am GMT by zinn0
wow. This fell apart rather quickly...
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:16 am GMT by KingOHearts
Anyway, villians each had PP...QQ and 99.
I think I might have to put a curfew on myself. I should at least post a few hands I played well so everyone here doesnt try to file committment papers on me. Sheesh.
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:32 am GMT by KingOHearts
Yeah, I can see everyone scrambling to add me to their buddy lists right now. Sorry to have wasted the bandwidth.
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:40 am GMT by zinn0
Sometimes, the most important thing you can do is slow down and think, what hands have me beat? Then try and decide whether any villain involved in the hand could possibly be holding one of these hands.
As Tame stated (I thought??), the only hands that have you beat are JJ, J5, and J3. The way that this hand played out, I can't see anyone holding any of these hands.
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:04 am GMT by KingOHearts
Of course you are correct....I really cant explain it except for a brain fart. Something in my brain said "a Jack means a bigger boat".
Sometimes I think get too fixated on trying to figure out what villian has and forget to think what I am holding, if that makes any sense. Good advice from all, thanks
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:36 am GMT by snoogins47
One time I was a massive chipleader in a homegame tournament, and doubled up the second place player when the my "9sTs" on the J Q K A X rainbow board turned into "8s 9s" when I flipped them over at showdown.
By the way, to try to wring a bit of discussion out of this: Zinn, why do you prefer check-calling, and then check-raising the turn?
It always depends on lots of things, but the check-call-check-raise screams such strength that we might even cause a weak J to slow down, and there's virtually no hope of any non-J hand, that we have beat, giving us action past the check-raise. To look at it from the outsider's perspective, there just are practically ZERO hands we could have, if we check-call-check-raise, that are not Jx, or better. I think popping it on the flop gets us a smidge more action against an opponent's Jx, but more importantly, it gives us the best chance of getting a significant amount of action from hands that don't contain a jack, most notably overpairs.
It's reasonable from their perspective too: if I'm the PFR villain in this hand with AA/KK, and I get raised on that flop, there is a reasonable chance that I still have the best hand (how low, or high this chance is, is another question entirely). If I bet the flop, get called, bet on the blankity blank turn, and THEN get raised, I give my chances of holding the best hand somewhere between those two famous categories "slim" and "none."
In fact, I think I even prefer calling, and "donking" the turn to check-raising the turn in this hand. I'm not saying that the check-raise is necessarily wrong, I just want to hear more reasoning behind it.
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:46 am GMT by KingOHearts
All I know is that I want a re-do. 
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:55 am GMT by zinn0
| snoogins47 wrote: | | By the way, to try to wring a bit of discussion out of this: Zinn, why do you prefer check-calling, and then check-raising the turn? |
With that hand, I would like to try and keep as many people involved for at least 1 more card. Maybe even let someone improve a little. That's just me, though.
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:28 am GMT by tame_deuces
| snoogins47 wrote: | | In fact, I think I even prefer calling, and "donking" the turn to check-raising the turn in this hand. I'm not saying that the check-raise is necessarily wrong, I just want to hear more reasoning behind it. |
I'm with you here. Raising turn is a dead giveaway. Actually, merely calling the flop with a tight image is a dead giveaway and can cause clever villains to lock up, check behind on turn and call river for bluff protection, which is a complete disaster for our hand. If we only win this hand 15% of the time against villain, and he gets away with not paying us off, he'll be the winning player over the long run. Not too mention we might be freely giving away a 2-card try for villain's two outs if he holds a PP.
C/R turn is g00t if we frequently do this with draws and dubious made hands, AND we think villain knows this about us. 99% of the time both of those can be marked 'no' for most people though.
Building the pot on the flop will make it harder for villain to get away from a strong hand on the turn for a good prize. If villain whiffed and is weak he probably won't pay us off much more anyway.
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:56 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| KingOHearts wrote: | | "A fold is only a small mistake" |
Is it a bigger mistake than a call? (Compare folding a winner to calling with a loser, which is the bigger mistake and why?)
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:35 pm GMT by KingOHearts
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | KingOHearts wrote: | | "A fold is only a small mistake" |
Is it a bigger mistake than a call? (Compare folding a winner to calling with a loser, which is the bigger mistake and why?) |
1. Quote now sort of out of context....I had a brain fart and thought I was behind and that it could get expensive. Obviously in this case, folding cost me quite a bit.
2. Please stop bumping this thread up, it is not exactly not my finest moment
Had a somewhat similar hand earlier today..and while I didnt misplay it I didnt play it optimally either. There is something about that specific situation...me with a lower PP, higher PP on the board and then I make the boat and my brain doesnt process properly. In this case I had 33, board comes AAx, turn x and river 3. There was only minimal betting up to the river and I didnt bet as much as I should have on the river, so I didnt maximize the potential of the hand against the guy I knew held a weak A that he thought was gold.
Posted Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:56 pm GMT by KingOHearts
OK, so this hand hot off the presses...here is one way to make it foolproof
Posted Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:06 am GMT by 1988 TR
I would try & get a decent amount in on the flop with the goal of getting all in on the turn.
Posted Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:07 am GMT by 1988 TR
| KingOHearts wrote: | OK, so this hand hot off the presses...here is one way to make it foolproof
|
LOL, N1! I hope that guy had a 10 so that you double up!
Posted Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:53 am GMT by KingOHearts
Nah, it didnt pay...didnt figure it would.
Posted Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:09 am GMT by zinn0
Quads always kill my action.
Posted Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:33 pm GMT by greathuskie
you folded that? your poker license is revoked
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