Posted Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:17 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Ok, I have a friend who is a Poker neophyte of sorts... he has no patience and no desire to learn how to play well. He has lost hundreds of dollars online, but we play a lot of games heads up for $5... and lately, I cannot get the best of him. Most of the beats are just unlucky, but I'm wondering if there are specific ways to exploit his playing style:
1. He almost never raises preflop. When he does, he either holds JJ, TT, or utter trash (he always slow plays QQ, KK, AA, and doesn't think AK is a great hand so he always limps with it).
2. He calls a lot of preflop raises.
3. He calls a lot of times on the flop when he hits ANY pair or has two overcards or any kind of draw, so bluffing on the flop is useless.
4. If he calls on the flop, he will usually see the hand through until the end, unless he faces an all-in bet.
5. If a hand gets checked down to the river, he will almost always bet a small amount hoping to pick it up.
6. He will almost always slow play big hands (even two pair) until the river before putting in a modest raise.
7. He makes big bluffs at random intervals (true bluffs, not even semi-bluffs... some of these plays are modestly respectable).
It is amazing how many times this guy has outdrawn me, hitting higher two pair against my middle two pair, chasing and hitting flushes when I flop trips or a straight, and hitting raggedy two pair against my top pair when I've raised pre-flop (one incident where I raises 5x the BB with AK, and he flopped two pair with 72 when the flop came K72). Most recently, he called an all-in preflop with A3 and beat my TT.
I know in the long run value bets will eat this guy alive and that I'm bound to get the best of him, but based off his stats, what specific things should I do to beat him in the short run? I've lost our last 6 games in a row and I don't want to lose another one.
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Posted Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:26 pm GMT by supafrey
value bet every street. try betting 20% more than you normally would feel comfy or is "right".
Try never raising with anything less than Js+ and AJ+ so that you can feel confident leading out any flop.
Posted Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:50 pm GMT by Ciso_B
| Quote: | | value bet every street |
To further supas point, just adjust ure betting well and you should beat this guy. You say he calls with any pair, so make nice value bets when u hit nice and dont slowplay anything against this guy cos he seems like the kind , if he gonna pay u he gonna pay u.
Also, you say bluffing on flop is useless but i still think its worthwhile raising alot with position, cos the fact is he isnt gonna pair up much on the flop (1/3 of the time ist it?) so raising from sb then betting the flop should pick up enough pots too imo.
Plus if you take the agression throughout the match it ll probably frustrate him and make him play even worse, seen it happen loads of times.
Posted Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:00 pm GMT by Icec0o1
adjusting to your oponents is the most important skill in poker. You can do two things against your friend:
either become extremely agressive and bet even with middle pair if he's a calling station, semi-bluff with draws and bet big when you hit or
become very tight, play a lot of flops if he doesn't raise and wait to hit 2 pair, set, or better and make a few good plays, like bet flop, check turn, bet big on river...
think both will work out if you play them well enough
Posted Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:36 pm GMT by supafrey
| Icec0o1 wrote: | adjusting to your oponents is the most important skill in poker. You can do two things against your friend:
either become extremely agressive and bet even with middle pair if he's a calling station, semi-bluff with draws and bet big when you hit or
become very tight, play a lot of flops if he doesn't raise and wait to hit 2 pair, set, or better and make a few good plays, like bet flop, check turn, bet big on river...
think both will work out if you play them well enough |
Don't listen to this.
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:35 am GMT by Icec0o1
| supafrey wrote: | value bet every street. try betting 20% more than you normally would feel comfy or is "right".
Try never raising with anything less than Js+ and AJ+ so that you can feel confident leading out any flop. |
don't listen to this
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:36 am GMT by snoogins47
I want to let Supa and Ice continue to butt heads, but I'll try to add my two cents regardless.
Interestingly, while this opponent may well be a very poor player, some of his tendencies cause him to 'accidentally' stumble into some fairly effective bits of play.
Most notably, the fact that he typically lays off raising on the early rounds of hands adds a fairly significant amount of deception to his play... coupled with the fact that he often slowplays, we run into the problem that he's going to be playing weak hands very similarly to how he plays his strong ones. The fact that he bluffs frequently on the end kinda plays into this as well, to make it even more frustrating for our hero. Couple this with the fact that it seems like many of his raises earlier in hands are fairly well mixed up (either reasonably strong hands, or absolutely nothing) and we have all sorts of headaches.
It's hard to really settle the preflop issue without knowing more about the game structure. If the game is fairly shallow, you're gonna need to be hammering him preflop a lot. If it's fairly deep, it may well be better to keep the pots small preflop much of the time.
The key though, is fairly well contained in Supa's suggestion of value betting like a mofaka. Most importantly:
2. He calls a lot of preflop raises
3. He calls a lot of the time on the flop with any pair, two overcards, any kind of draw
4. If he calls on the flop he will usually see the hand through until the end, unless he faces an all-in bet.
These quite simply add up to, well, 9.
Though this is poker, and it's always a little more complicated than a few sentences can illustrate, I'd say the most important thing to do against this opponent is to:
a)flop a reasonably strong hand
b)bet, bet, bet.
c)Keep from going overboard with the bet sizes.
Since he seems to be generally loose, but big bets garner respect from him, the meat and potatoes of it seems to be that you need to win a lot of medium sized pots. Big bets to 'protect our hand' are natural, against somebody that likes to draw out on us, but they're not really the way to go. Find a hand like TPGK, and while I'm not saying bet tiny amounts, make medium sized bet after medium sized bet. Win the medium pots with medium hands. Stay the hell away from the big pots, unless you've got the goods.
Big bets/all-ins make him think twice. We're better off if he only thinks once.
Also of note: You can still pick up pots on the flop against this player, though you probably have to be a bit more selective than against most. The flops where nobody like, ever has a reason to continue (K K 2, anybody?) are the times to try to snake us some dead money without a hand. I will, however, gouge your eyes out if you fire again on the turn against this player, if your hand doesn't have a reasonable amount of showdown value. Be warned.
To Ice: I liked your bit about being aggressive with hands as weak as middle pair. I hated the part about semi-bluffing. Could you elaborate a bit on the whole thing?
| Quote: | | Interestingly, while this opponent may well be a very poor player, some of his tendencies cause him to 'accidentally' stumble into some fairly effective bits of play. |
Don't listen to this./quote
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:47 am GMT by tame_deuces
| snoogins47 wrote: | I
Interestingly, while this opponent may well be a very poor player, some of his tendencies cause him to 'accidentally' stumble into some fairly effective bits of play. |
This was my first thoughts when I heard the description of him too. Curses for beating me to saying so. His tactics are not bad/bad for HU play at all, and will almost nullify big parts of the usual over-aggressive tactic that many recommend for HU play.
Ciso_B's point on position is excellent, and should be followed strongly.
I played a very passive player that in many ways fits the description of your guy and here was my gameplan for profiting from his gameplay for 100BB HU NL games.
The keywords for me versus that player were controlling the pots.
1.) His passiveness is NOT something he does to counter your aggression, this is important. His passiveness is a general trait to his HU game, as such we can exploit it because he won't adjust properly if we are NOT always aggressive postflop. He will be passive in the wrong places. In position I would raise any big cards or small cards. With position you will likely have full control of the pot postflop and can check for free cards or bet when you hit as you see fit. He is also likely to pay us off if he has a part of the board.
This means both big cards and small drawing hands have increased in value for us greatly, since a.) He will often call valuebets. b). Fail to charge us for draws. He is also not likely to re-raise preflop meaning that building pots with small connectors likely won't get punished.
When you miss and cont. bet and he calls you know he has something and can check behind on turn effectively giving you two cards to beat his hand for the prize of one.
2.) Be fairly tight on the BB preflop. Your opponent's lack of aggression will keep OOP pots low, which is an extreme advantage for you. As described you should have very loose calling requirements for calling a river bet in a checked pot.
3.) Never slowplay anything. This guy most likely calls if has anything, so you'll get action if he has a hand to give it with.
4.) Always semi-bluff your draws. If he has nothing he folds, if he has anything he calls, effectively giving you implied odds anyway.
5.) Bluff with position, not OOP. It will be much less expensive.
6.) Control the pots! This is your game, he is just an observer with special interest. 8)
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:21 am GMT by Icec0o1
| snoogins47 wrote: | To Ice: I liked your bit about being aggressive with hands as weak as middle pair. I hated the part about semi-bluffing. Could you elaborate a bit on the whole thing?
|
Well by semi-bluff I don't mean try to steal the pot, just buy a card and help your strong hand when you hit by disguising it. Diamond said his friend calls more than anything else so you shouldn't be afraid of reraises. If you hit your draw and he has top pair/good hand, you can break him right there since he won't put you on the straight/flush most of the time -> "6. He will almost always slow play big hands (even two pair)" Make him pay for that with your draws. Yeah, you can check to catch your draw but then he'll be a lot more careful when you put him all in with a third heart on the board and you checking the flop. Implied odds are huge from the description of this guy so semi-bluffs don't hurt you at all in the long run.
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:31 am GMT by Icec0o1
| tame_deuces wrote: |
This was my first thoughts when I heard the description of him too. Curses for beating me to saying so. His tactics are not bad/bad for HU play at all, and will almost nullify big parts of the usual over-aggressive tactic that many recommend for HU play.
|
I see the game a little different, especially heads up. I think it's like rock-paper-scissors type of a situation, where there isn't a perfect way to play but a style works good against one and horrible against another. This type of play might work well against Diamond but as he said, his friend drops a load of cash on other players. It's all about finding something that works against him.
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:54 am GMT by cayouche
I play a friend that plays exactly like this. ... and he does have some success too.
At first, I played a few HU matches, and he won. Same thing, I always felt like I was getting outdrawn and everything... And it pissed me off, of course, because I know I'm a better player than him, simply because I can adapt to his play.
So that's what I did, I decided to analyse my play, and the leak I found is that when I face players like him, I tend to lose my aggressiveness.
Solution?? I decided to turn the aggressive switch up a notch. Most of my play will have to be made on the flop, so I raise with practically any hand preflop. At first, he will call most hands. If I hit, oh man... For some reason, they always find a possible draw on the flop, that is when you start pounding on him.
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:08 pm GMT by supafrey
| Quote: |
4.) Always semi-bluff your draws. If he has nothing he folds, if he has anything he calls, effectively giving you implied odds anyway. |
NO. BAD.
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:40 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| supafrey wrote: | | Quote: |
4.) Always semi-bluff your draws. If he has nothing he folds, if he has anything he calls, effectively giving you implied odds anyway. |
NO. BAD. |
Why is this? We can't only be valuebetting when HU, even a calling station will figure that out.
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:01 pm GMT by Hungry4Knowledge
| supafrey wrote: | | Quote: |
4.) Always semi-bluff your draws. If he has nothing he folds, if he has anything he calls, effectively giving you implied odds anyway. |
NO. BAD. |
Supafrey, its really easy to say "bad" and "Dont listen to this".... Please explain why you think this is bad plays or why he shoudnt do it!
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:12 pm GMT by supafrey
| tame_deuces wrote: | | supafrey wrote: | | Quote: |
4.) Always semi-bluff your draws. If he has nothing he folds, if he has anything he calls, effectively giving you implied odds anyway. |
NO. BAD. |
Why is this? We can't only be valuebetting when HU, even a calling station will figure that out. |
While that's true, I think there will be more than enough raising in general from our hero that this semi-bluffing is next to useless.
As with any HU strategy, there's an obvious need for aggression. Yes, he will be betting, and he will be betting STRONG.. BUT...
I'd prefer (against this style of opp) to have our hero reduce his arsenal to what he knows could work. Some of this has already been addressed by snoo, but the points I'd concentrate on...
1. Value bet more than you normally would, as I mentioned earlier. Lower it down to any pair, if you must, but betting with bottom pair or less may leave you in sticky situations. I'd stick for a medium pair atleast and adapt from there.
2. Don't play OOP as much. Be ready and willing to fold your bb as necessary. More than necessary, maybe. Against this guy you want position and the last say, especially come river time.
3. If you're on the button, raise 90% of the hands. Trust me. The only time you want juicy pots is when you're in control, and the button provides that.. which brings me to...
4. Continuation bet on the flop 80-90% of the time. You said he makes his decision on the flop, so this will let you take down a significant amount of the pots that you've already juiced up with your button raise.
5. DONT BET YOUR DRAWS LIKE ONE NORMALLY MIGHT. I don't see what possible purpose this could serve. You're already going to be making (hopefully) a significant amount of raises on the flop through your continuation bets... there's NO reason to keep it going with draws that you could get to see for cheaper against this passive opponent. Yes, once or twice it may be a good idea, but I'd much rather you take this plan completely out of your mind than overuse it. "You'll get implied odds if he calls, anyways" is shady logic, at best. You're going to get MUCH better odds if you just check and let the sucker bet out on the river when he senses weakness and you've already hit your monster. As the OP said, he likes to see things down once he calls a raise or flop... you NEED to keep the pots small when you have a draw, and semibluffs will NOT help you do that.
6. Learn pot control. errr.. this would take me like.. 10 pages of ranting. I refuse.
7. Overbet once or twice when you have a monster. This guy may call you down just to "catch" you. This is just my interpretation of your read on this guy, so I'm not 100% on this one... but I'm pretty sure it's a decent play either way. Consider it.
Happy? I elaborated.
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:39 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| supafrey wrote: | | tame_deuces wrote: | | supafrey wrote: | | Quote: |
4.) Always semi-bluff your draws. If he has nothing he folds, if he has anything he calls, effectively giving you implied odds anyway. |
NO. BAD. |
Why is this? We can't only be valuebetting when HU, even a calling station will figure that out. |
While that's true, I think there will be more than enough raising in general from our hero that this semi-bluffing is next to useless.
As with any HU strategy, there's an obvious need for aggression. Yes, he will be betting, and he will be betting STRONG.. BUT...
I'd prefer (against this style of opp) to have our hero reduce his arsenal to what he knows could work. Some of this has already been addressed by snoo, but the points I'd concentrate on...
1. Value bet more than you normally would, as I mentioned earlier. Lower it down to any pair, if you must, but betting with bottom pair or less may leave you in sticky situations. I'd stick for a medium pair atleast and adapt from there.
2. Don't play OOP as much. Be ready and willing to fold your bb as necessary. More than necessary, maybe. Against this guy you want position and the last say, especially come river time.
3. If you're on the button, raise 90% of the hands. Trust me. The only time you want juicy pots is when you're in control, and the button provides that.. which brings me to...
4. Continuation bet on the flop 80-90% of the time. You said he makes his decision on the flop, so this will let you take down a significant amount of the pots that you've already juiced up with your button raise.
5. DONT BET YOUR DRAWS LIKE ONE NORMALLY MIGHT. I don't see what possible purpose this could serve. You're already going to be making (hopefully) a significant amount of raises on the flop through your continuation bets... there's NO reason to keep it going with draws that you could get to see for cheaper against this passive opponent. Yes, once or twice it may be a good idea, but I'd much rather you take this plan completely out of your mind than overuse it. "You'll get implied odds if he calls, anyways" is shady logic, at best. You're going to get MUCH better odds if you just check and let the sucker bet out on the river when he senses weakness and you've already hit your monster. As the OP said, he likes to see things down once he calls a raise or flop... you NEED to keep the pots small when you have a draw, and semibluffs will NOT help you do that.
6. Learn pot control. errr.. this would take me like.. 10 pages of ranting. I refuse.
7. Overbet once or twice when you have a monster. This guy may call you down just to "catch" you. This is just my interpretation of your read on this guy, so I'm not 100% on this one... but I'm pretty sure it's a decent play either way. Consider it.
Happy? I elaborated. |
Much better than when writing NO.BAD. 
I think we wrote pretty much the exact same things in our posts apart from the disagreement on semi-bluffing. I worded myself real badly too, I would ofcourse try to avoid semi-bluffs when OOP against a loose passive like the plague a majority of the time.
But if we have positon (like both you and me agree is probably the most vital aspect of a good strategy against this guy) semi-bluffing isn't horribly expensive since we can probably get a free card on the turn if we feel like it, plus the majority of the time our semi-bluff will actually be a continuation bet in itself since we'll be raising the majority of our hands from the button.
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:30 pm GMT by cayouche
That's what I meant too, pretty much. At least we all agree on the same basis. 
Icec0o1, with this strategy, you should be able to win more than you lose, hopefully. 
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:51 pm GMT by Icec0o1
| cayouche wrote: | That's what I meant too, pretty much. At least we all agree on the same basis.
Icec0o1, with this strategy, you should be able to win more than you lose, hopefully. |
NO. BAD.
It just seems that you're going to be bluffing a lot more then you really need to against this type of player. You went from value bet your good hands to bet 90% of the times on the button and continue bluffing 80% and I don't get that against a loose, calling station. Get a monster, disguise it well, and break him in one swift motion; at least that's how I view heads up should be played against him.
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:54 pm GMT by Icec0o1
Btw, your strategy is very good for just about any heads up game and it's a winning one, but I think you can do better against Diamond's friend.
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:40 pm GMT by cayouche
| cayouche wrote: | That's what I meant too, pretty much. At least we all agree on the same basis.
Icec0o1, with this strategy, you should be able to win more than you lose, hopefully. |
Sorry Icec0o1, it was actually intended to diamond cutter himself. Sorry.
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:46 pm GMT by cayouche
| Icec0o1 wrote: | | Get a monster, disguise it well, and break him in one swift motion; at least that's how I view heads up should be played against him. |
Yeah, true, but I don't have that time. If I do get a monster, perfect, but meanwhile I just want to pound him with everything I got. Raising on the button most of the times preflop is just great IMO, you want to take the guy out of his game early. I don't want to give him any comfort zone.
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:49 pm GMT by supafrey
ERrr.. note I also said be prepared to fold a good majority of your BB hands. I'm talking 85% of them. Then lets say I play a good 70% of my hands while on the button, and that averages out to me playing about playing from 40-50% of hands total. This is crazy?
Posted Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:43 pm GMT by TxShadow
I'd have to agree with supa. Semi-bluffing against someone that is going to call you down every time seems kinda pointless. It takes a play that has 2 ways of winning (opponent folding or you completing your draw) to a play that is just going to basically put more money into a pot that you are not a favorite to win.
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