Posted Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:03 pm GMT by charlidontsurff
So I'm playing no-limit in some basement with a bunch of people I know, I'm small blind. Five people call the bet, then I call, then the guy in the big blind raises a dollar. Everyone folds except for me, and I raise him four dollars (he's all-in). Now it's just me and him. He thinks about this for a long time, debating with himself, actually getting ready to fold, then another person at the table says "turn over your cards" so he shows everyone at the table his cards, (KQ suited,) and everyone at the table tells him right away to call. So he does, and the board comes out and he wins. IS IT JUST ME OR IS THIS RIDICULOUS? He exposed his cards before he made a decision, and he got outside help from everyone at the table. I think I should get my money back, but everyone keeps bullsh--ting me. Am I right in saying that his actions were against the rules?
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Posted Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:11 pm GMT by golddog
I'm not sure it's against the rules to expose your cards when you have the only action left on the table, but it was definitely unethical of the people not involved in the hand to give advice.
One thing we'll do occassionally when someone has an interesting decision is to keep those cards on the side (if they fold it), and then have a group discussion AFTER THE HAND IS OVER about the pot odds and strategy involved.
Posted Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:14 pm GMT by Fat Tony
this should NOT be allowed. you should have raised a big stink at the time.....it's kinda late now to do anything, but i would clear this issue up before playing with those guys again. if they insist on allowing this kind of thing, i would find another game.
Posted Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:27 pm GMT by SillyPuppy
I'm with Tony. That's the most ridiculous thing I'd ever heard of.
I'll be the first to admit that myself and the guys I play with are not experts, but if there's one thing we do right, it's that we respect the rules of the game enough not to tolerate crap like that. No one at my game would EVER consider doing that. Ditch those guys who can't figure their own hands out for themselves, and find some new fish.
(Sorry for the rant, I just found out that the house has termites, and I'm gonna be out about $2500. I am NOT in a good mood  )
Posted Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:31 pm GMT by nicthestick
I think the proper response was to ask dude "Do you need help deciding on which hand to unzip with as well?" My God!!!!!
Posted Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:08 pm GMT by charlidontsurff
Yeah that's what I thought. It's happened before but I've never been at the butt of it so I didn't really care. I b*tched a lot but it was a few minutes after I lost. Obviously everyone helping him out is a flagrant violation of everything, I'm also wondering is just turning over his cards by itself bad? It's against the rules in casinos because of hidden signals, etc. but I'm wondering do you guys take this rule that seriously if you're not playing in Casinos and are just in a pickup game? THis happens a lot to me, I raise after the river, and the one guy left turns his cards over before he makes his decision and sees how I react. Obviously this isn't AS big a deal, but still I think it shouldn't be done.
Posted Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:25 pm GMT by nicthestick
Turning your cards over to elicit a reaction is a good play imo. Asking for help is a chump move. any player who offers help needs to playoff the loser of the pot. Play with your own cards, not your buddies.
Posted Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:03 pm GMT by Fat Tony
your mistake was bitching AFTER, when you needed to do it BEFORE the hand was decided because then they think it's sour grapes when you say something after the fact even thou what happened was absolute b.s.
Posted Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:33 pm GMT by charlidontsurff
Yeah I know. I was concentrating too much on the hand itself, trying not to give any tells, so I wasn't saying anything. And I was bluffing and was nervous. Anyway, I guess I stand corrected on the exposing of the cards before you call or fold.
Posted Sun Mar 21, 2004 7:47 am GMT by BrianGre
actually the turning over of the cards itself may have constituted a dead hand in some houses... there have been other threads here about talking crap vs. telling the truth...
if you turn them over, then you're telling the truth about your hand; and this was bad...
I remember something about this in the WSOP for last year... the table was with Cloutier and someone I didn't know
Posted Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:44 am GMT by JohnnyCache
If there's no bet to your opponent, I think you can do just about anything to get a reaction out of them while deciding to fold . . . but you should have leaned over and kicked the advice giver's chair out from under him.
Posted Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:48 am GMT by Dave B
what was your hand?
Posted Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:10 pm GMT by charlidontsurff
J8 suited. And a jack came out on the flop, but then the other guy paired kings on the turn.
Posted Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:22 pm GMT by Adam Marshall
If he shows his hand to someone else who was involved with the hand it's dead. Even if they don't say anything (I think because he could try and gauge their reaction).
The other players had knowledge of what cards wouldn't be coming up, because they folded some of them. That knowledge can't be shared with an active player.
If for some ridiculous reason someone folded a pair of kings they could base the decision on the fact that a king would be less likely to come up. Or, especially in your case, the other players didn't have a king or queen, so they thought his chance of getting one would be better.
As soon as he showed his hand, his hand would be ruled dead. You should've won right there.
They screwed you. Go back there and crack some skulls.
Posted Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:54 pm GMT by racquet000
This has happend to me before. When i raised one guy all in. He had low chips i was ok but not great. I had ak and he had kq he showed other people his hand as he was going to fold but they talked him into calling. Sure i didnt care. But then he one. I just said f*ck you all laughed and blew it out my ass. Its tough but if you dont do something before hand then theres nothing more you can do after . Whats done is done.
Posted Sun Apr 11, 2004 5:55 pm GMT by aces_empty
the problem isn't him exposing his cards really, it's the other people are the table telling him what to do. If it was at a casino, i'm sure he would have been forced to fold for showing his cards, however. The thing is, it doesn't make a difference if he shows you his cards or not, if he calls, he's going to turn them over, if he folds, you just got that information from him. I'd say the real issue is the big mouths sitting at the table
Posted Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:56 pm GMT by Fat Tony
correct. the issue is totally about getting advice from people who were previously involved in the hand because they have inside knowledge as to what cards have been folded and are giving the other guy an unfair advantage. if he wants to show his cards in a heads-up situation, that's up to him. but no help from other players.
Posted Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:45 am GMT by thepheonix
The WSOP rules say that you can do anything pretty much in heads up. You can show your opponenent one card or both. You can say whatever. The advice actually isn't illegal, but IT IS COMPLETLY UNETHICAL!!! It should have broke out in a riot. But as far as rules, it is allowed by the rules of poker. Those fools should get a beating however.
Posted Mon Apr 12, 2004 1:37 am GMT by charlidontsurff
I can't see how it's possible under WSOP rules. One guy got a ten minute penalty for accidentally lifting his folded cards high enough to the audience could see, even though no one at the table could. You are NOT allowed to expose cards. Then you could guage other players' reactions who had folded even without asking for advice, and calculate your odds of what the other headsup player has.
Posted Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:27 am GMT by Matt T
I like 2 of the 3 'house' rules they use in the NLHE tourneys on the gambling boat I play on.
1) Do not expose any cards until the showdown or all all-ins have been called, etc. Exposed cards is a dead hand. If you were all-in, you're out.
2) No talking about the hand during the hand whether you're in/out or heads-up. Doing so results in disqualification from the tourney.
3) There is a line around the perimeter of the table about 12-18 inches in from the edges. If you do not verbalize the amount of your bet/raise, any and all chips that cross the line are your bet/raise.
That last one gets people all the time because they're not used to it. No picking up a huge stack of chips and then just dropping a couple in (unless you've verbalized your amount first). Several times I've seen folks pick up pots because they "accidentally" bet way, way more than they intended and nobody could call. It's also a way to play possum! "Awe darn, you mean I now HAVE to bet the whole stack. Well, (sigh) it's too late now."
Posted Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:50 am GMT by thepheonix
See... those rules apply to whole tables. But once it gets down to two people. Those rules change. I know this. I am going searching now. You can say/ flash your cards to your opponents. To intimidate them or whatever. You know there is no collusion between them at this point, whereas before it could be a major problem. Let me find the rule........
Posted Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:29 pm GMT by Always_Bored
most places call that a dead hand. He can not expose any of his cards while the call is still pending. Asking for help is just worse.
Posted Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:43 pm GMT by thepheonix
TADA! Offical Rules:
Players, whether in the hand or not, may not discuss the hands until the action is complete. Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Discussing cards discarded or hand possibilities is not allowed. A penalty may be given for discussion of hands during the play.
A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed.
So his hand is valid and does play, but depending on the tournement director he might incur a penalty (usually a 10,20, or 30 minute ban from the table where his cards are folded). Still.... very rude and should not be done, but he does take down the pot.
This is from the TDA (Tournement Directors Association) that governs most WPT events and WSOP.
Posted Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:57 pm GMT by Holtzdog
Question....you say he is all-in, did he go all -in after you raised 4 dollars or was he all-in because he was out of money?? If he was all-in after you raised him then did you call him before he showed his cards?? if he was all-in and you called then it should be a showdown.......
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