Who played worse and why? |
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Posted Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:38 am GMT by Tadzio
Deconstruct the play of PlayerA and PlayerC. Imagine playing the hand from PlayerA's perspective without knowing what PlayerC is holding and vice-versa. Who played their hand better and why? What could PlayerA have done to play his hand better? What could PlayerC have done to play his hand better? If your answer in either case is "fold pre-flop," please also give your opinion on their flop play. Thanks.
10 player SNG, down to 3 players who're trying to decide who gets the most money...
PlayerA: 7200 8  4 The big stack. Button. Has been getting a lot of good hands. Has made several gutsy plays calling down bluffs (most recently he had pocket 5s and the board read A J 8 4 2). Seems to play his reads more than his cards-- but his cards have generally been good so they haven't been a big delitorious factor.
PlayerB: 4200 ? ? Along for the ride. Small Blind. Fairly solid player, not a factor in this hand.
PlayerC: 3000 A  5  The small stack. Big Blind. Aggressive bluffer, has been caught bluffing 2-3 times. Has not shown down a dominate winning hand (top pair, good kicker has been his best showdown win). Almost all of his money has come from picking up smallish pots on the flop and turn.
Blinds 75/150
Preflop:
PlayerA calls
PlayerB folds
PlayerC raises 300 to 450
PlayerA calls
Pot = 975
Flop: 2 8 A
PlayerC checks
PlayerA bets 500
PlayerC raises all-in 2050 to 2550.
PlayerA calls 2050.
Pot = 6075
I'll post the results of the hand after some feedback.
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Posted Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:28 am GMT by Muck
PlayerA point of view:
PlayerC limp-called from the button, which would make me suspect a strong hand (AK – AJs). If he had less (KJ-JTs) I’d expect him to raise and try to take the blinds.
However, since the raise was small he was getting 3 to 1 on his call so he could potentially have a weak hand (only worth a limp) then just liked the odds.
The flop illustrates the problem with Ace rag. There’s a little evidence to support the chance you’re dominated. In which case:
If he has >=A9 you’re about a 7 to 1 dog.
If he has <=A6 you’re probably going to be splitting the pot 80% of the time.
So if he has any ace you’re actual chance to win is pretty poor.
EDIT: Section removed because I misread the post flop action.
Posted Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:14 am GMT by UrAteUp
Player A probably would be thinking this guy is trying to make a move here. Since he is short stacked just about any two cards would make player C a starting hand. He did raise though pre-flop which often indicates a decent starting hand.
Player C is probably wondering if A has a better hand then he does. After seeing the 500 bet, player C knows A doesn't have a good hand. Time to push and see if he can double up perhaps.
A was NOT too smart for playing this hand. Yes C has been a bluffer but in this stage of the tournament you really don't want to fool around and take big chances till you have to.
Pre-flop play I think if I was A I would have played this hand and prayed for an all heart flop. If I was C I would have played it just as they did.
Postflop- C knew they most likely had the best hand after A made the 500 chip bet. He most likely put A on a PP smaller then AA and knew it was either push or fold time. C played perfectly. A really has no choice but to lay the hand down.
Posted Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:24 am GMT by Soup_dog
If I was player A I would have folded to the reraise preflop. Playing these hands will cause you to have to make difficult decisions. Sure Player C may have been stealing but that's no big deal. I would wait until I get a better hand and then smack his hand.... hard. 84, even soooooted, just isn't a strong enough hand IMO to be pushing a bunch of chips into the pot.
Posted Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:45 pm GMT by suitedaces84
They both played the hand well, IMO.
Posted Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:58 pm GMT by BeerWench13
I don't like the limp/call preflop for player A. If you think the short-stack is bluffing, push over top of him preflop and make him decide if his hand is worth all of his chips. If you think he has you dominated, then fold and pick a better spot.
Player A made a rather weak bet on the flop. If you're not going to take the free card, then bet more to take the pot right then.
I think Player C played the hand well. I'm not a huge fan of the check/raise on the flop, but it wasn't a bad play either. It's just not the play that I, personally, would've made.
As Player A, I certainly would not have called the all-in raise on the flop. If I was going to commit that much of my stack with such a dismal hand, I would do so betting, not calling.
A bettor, not a caller be.
Posted Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:54 pm GMT by Tadzio
Thanks for all the feedback. Now for the pay-off.
Turn: 2
River: 8 
Posted Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:46 pm GMT by BeerWench13
I had a feeling it was a draw-out. I still stick with my original post. But, then again, I'm not a "lucky" player. I'm usually on the other end of it.
Posted Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:26 am GMT by Tadzio
| BeerWench13 wrote: | | I had a feeling it was a draw-out. |
Is their any other type of poker story worth telling? :D
Anyway, I'd like to share my idea of how the players should've played:
PlayerA-- The big stack on the button. There's 2 ways to play this.
1) You let the smaller stacks fight it out, ensuring you get at least 2nd. 8 4 definately qualifies as a hand you fold PF while playing this way.
2) Pressure the blinds. You have position and chips to back it up. A raise to 600 PF regardless of what you're holding is called for, imo. Reasons:
...a) the small-blind is in second, he has to fold unless he has a premium hand because he knows that the small stack is looking for a pot big enough to push on. A pot of 1350 or more is exactly the sort of pot a small stack with a painted hand will push into. Strategically speaking, the SB can't risk that, so he folds to a bet of 600 PF 9 times out of 10.
...b)PlayerC can't call a PF bet of 600 without an exceptional hand. PlayerC still has enough chips to see a few more big-blinds before he has to start considering pushing with any two cards. However, if he calls 600 and misses the flop, losing the pot, he is now at the point where pushing with any two cards + position becomes a viable play. This is especially true once the blinds increase again. It's within the realm of possibility that PlayerC will push with a painted hand if the SB calls/raises, but as mentioned, the small-blind can't do this without a premium hand, and 825 isn't really worth pushing 3000 for unless you know you have the bigstack dominated.
It's my opinion that PlayerA should've opened the betting with a raise to 600. I don't think it'll happen very often that one or both players will have hands that can call that bet. Maybe 1 in 5 times you're in the same situation as PlayerA, one of your 2 opponents will have a hand that can call/raise you. However, you're risking 600 to pick up 225, which means you should make this play if your opponents will both fold 2 out of 3 times (4 out of 6). Since it's reasonable to assume they'll both fold 4 out of 5 times, this play is +EV.
The limp/call was the worst play in this hand, imo. But since it happened, on to the flop play:
On the flop, Player A catches middle pair and is playing an aggressive bluffer that opens with a check. Middle Pair matching PlayerA's top card is probably the 3rd or 4th best flop PlayerA could reasonably hope for (behind 3 's, 2 8s and 2 4s). I think PlayerA should have made a bet of 900 here. The reason I think this is unless PlayerC has 82, A2, A8, AK, or AQ, he can't really call this bet. He also cannot reraise enough to sour the pot, so PlayerA effectively neutralizes any bluffs from PlayerC by betting 900 on the flop. The bet also doesn't show any weakness... it's not an overbet or underbet. This puts a hard decision on PlayerC on whether to call (pushing really isn't an option unless PlayerC knows he has a fantastic hand, in which case PlayerA should be able to let the hand go). And even if PlayerA doesn't take down the pot right here (which I'm sure he'd prefer), he'd probably get an opportunity to check behind PlayerC on the turn giving him more information on his own hand.
In contrast a bet of 500 is begging for an all-in from PlayerC. With a pair of 8s 4 kicker, I don't like this amount at all, especially if PlayerA has an idea that PlayerC could have an A.
As for the call after the all-in from PlayerC, I agree with Muck. If you're going to make an information bet and face an all-in because of it, you gotta let it go in this situation.
PlayerC-- The smallstack on the bigblind.
Pre-flop he should've raised more, but by how much I'm not sure. This is actually a pretty difficult decision to make, I think. A5o is not worth an all-in considering the blinds/stack situation. However, raising more than 3x the BB PF can hurt PlayerC considerably, making him a real short stack if his opponent calls and PlayerC misses the flop. Raising to 600, for example would leave PlayerC with 2400 if he missed, which would mean he has to play all-in or fold until he gets some chips back. And that's never a fun situation to be in. Everything I've learned about Poker tells me PlayerC shouldn't check here. But what's the right amount to raise? Very tricky. Gambling by putting in a raise to 600 probably would've been the best move, but I can't say I like the consequences if a call/missed flop ensues.
The small PF raise was probably PlayerC's weakest play.
Post flop PlayerC's check is questionable, but considering the size of the pot and the weakness of his kicker, a check to gauge his opponent's play; betting ~500 hoping his opponent missed completely; or an all-in to scare away another weak Ace are his only real moves. Considering his hand strength and the size of his stack, PlayerC shouldn't consider putting out a probing bet. Being out of position puts him at a severe disadvatage, and personally I like the check when compared to the all-in.
Once PlayerA made the half-pot bet, PlayerC doesn't seem to have any choice but to go all-in. If PlayerA is baiting, it's good bait, because the size of the bet shows uncertainty, and PlayerC's answer should definitely be assertive. PlayerC would need some kind of clairvoyance (or super-paranoia) to consider that he's dominated in this spot.
I think they both made some serious tactical errors PF, and PlayerA especially goofed on the flop, where he let his read overpower his judgement and made a very bad call. He was about a 7-2 dog when he called, which doesn't come close to justifying the call if all stacks were equal....
However, the bigstack always has a greater liscense to gamble than the smallstack, and in this situation, the gamble paid off for the big stack in a big way.
It's curious to think about: ~3 out of 10 times, the big stack ends the hand with 2/3rds the chips in play, and is guarenteed second place with an enormous advatage to getting 1st. ~7/10 times the big stack is left with 4000 and is still capable of crippling any of his opponents. So really, his play isn't as bad as it seems upon first glance. PlayerA couldn't really lose this hand no matter how many times he bungled it... Although the odds were in his favor when the money went in the middle, PlayerC had to play as close to perfectly as possible in order to win this hand. And, of course, he didn't. He made some crucial mistakes that forced him to put all his money in the middle for top pair, no kicker. What a horrible position to be in, eh?
"In No Limit Hold'em, you're never as ahead as you think you are." -- Phil Gorden.
Posted Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:45 am GMT by nknowles
simple, dont call the raise with the 84 suited before the flop especially against the short stack. I mean ur clearly behind, hes gonna bet the flop especially if he raises before, ESPECIALLY WEN AN A HITS on the flop. Terrible play, i would never have gotten myself into this situation before the flop especially wen i got chips over an aggressive player, who is short stacked. I mean why give him for more chips? ur just indangering urself. U should have waited for a better spot, for him to donate his moeny to u, i think it would have been better for him to bet all in, and not u. He is an aggressive short stack player. TRAP HIM, especially preflop. with the 84 suited ur not gonna do that. Just my 2 cents :D
Posted Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:52 am GMT by Tadzio
Guess it wasn't obvious... I was PlayerC. Thanks for the tip, anyway, nknowles.
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