NL cash game , all in or fold. |
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Posted Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:03 pm GMT by kainARGH
Heres the hand in a nutshell ; ( 20$-40$ min-max buy in NL cash game )
I have 16$ left , in mid posistion ( utg+3 ) , 2 limpers in front of me. I have A10o. I raise to 7$ , guy to my left ( guy A, ) goes all in for 4$ , one caller , next guy ( guy B, ) goes all in for 8$ , next guy calls ( guy C, ) and one more caller , me i can't raise , i call.
flop
x 9 J
At the point only myself guy C and the over limper have chips , guy C bets 4 $. Heres my dilema
Theres about 32$ in the pot ( 32$ includes my 8$ ) , i have 8$ left and guy C raises it 4$. Now , i know hes betting the turn + river , the over limper ( guy after him ) allready folded , and i know im getting my 8$ in weather i like it or not. I have a read on him , that hes either hit 2nd pair or bottom pair , I know that both my cards are live VS him.
Fold or all in for my last 8$?
And if anyone likes , this table had a facinating history lol , all the players in the pot were real class acts , i could tell some funny storys if so requested.
p.s. Guy C had k9 offsuite ( makeing both my ace and ten live ) , why he was overcalling an early large( for this table ) raise , and two all ins from short stacks with that hand , is beyond me.
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Posted Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:58 am GMT by Tadzio
Fold.
IF you could win the whole pot vs your opponent (it's unlikely that you can, there are already a bunch of players all-in) then all-in would be your move.
If you KNOW both your cards are live and you KNOW your (singular) opponent has a pair of 9s and an overcard, you have a 1 in 3 chance of winning the hand. 8 dollars for 32 means you'll make money over time. However, since you're not the only two people playing for the pot, and there's no chance of those other players folding, moving all-in is -EV, because you won't always scoop. Some of the time (what amount depends on what the all-ins are holding) you'll only win 1-1 on you're money, which turns an all-in into a -EV play.
Posted Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:01 am GMT by Tadzio
| kainARGH wrote: |
p.s. Guy C had k9 offsuite ( makeing both my ace and ten live ) , why he was overcalling an early large( for this table ) raise , and two all ins from short stacks with that hand , is beyond me. |
Don't rag on him too much. I can't think of why you'd want to get involved in that mess either with ATo.
Posted Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:16 am GMT by kainARGH
| Tadzio wrote: | | kainARGH wrote: |
p.s. Guy C had k9 offsuite ( makeing both my ace and ten live ) , why he was overcalling an early large( for this table ) raise , and two all ins from short stacks with that hand , is beyond me. |
Don't rag on him too much. I can't think of why you'd want to get involved in that mess either with ATo. |
It went limp limp fold to me , my raise was to ( hopefully ) single the action down to myself and the two call happy preflop/ aggressive players , the rest of the table was fairly timid. Making it 7 preflop , and an all in player makeing it 8 , i cannot fold preflop. However what i wanted was myself VS 2 players , unfortunatly i find myself in 5 way action with 2 all in players. The two all in pre were basically noen factors , the shortest of the all in was pretty bad ( calling off chips with gutshots for example ) and the other all in for 8 , was selective with his hands ( so for the most part unless he picks up a big hand , i can cout on him to fold ).
Is it wrong to want 3 way action with a stupid agress player and a relatively smart but overly aggressive player , the over aggressive one i have good reads VS , the other one i watech go all in with an open ended VS a large rais and a smooth call.
p.s. Your first reply was very informative , thank you. Your second one , however i feel is opinion , specifically what i bolded , and ill argue that 8)
I made the initial raise with a good hand VS weak aggressive players , however what he did was overcall 2 all in's and an initial raise.
Posted Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:23 am GMT by kainARGH
| Tadzio wrote: | | However, since you're not the only two people playing for the pot, and there's no chance of those other players folding, moving all-in is -EV, because you won't always scoop. |
This is just speculative , because i cuoldn't be 100% ( though i felt strongly i was at least 70% right ) sure what the 2 all in's had , but what if ..... given the exact same situation , i KNEW one of my two cards wuold scoop the pot , is it still a bad call VS the 2 all ins AND my opponnent for whom i had 2 live cards?
IE i had ace ten , and i felt all in pre( 4$ guy ) was a none factor , either going in with a small pair or some form of suited connectors or not even connectors( 108s or 97s (( he in fact held 55 )) , now lets say all in pre ( 8$ guy ) i felt one of my cards was live till the river , either he went all in with a stronger ace ( makeing my 10 live VS the entire pot and both live VS the one who still had chips ) or he went all in with a big pair ( makeing my ace live for the entire pot and both cards live VS the one who still had chips ).
p.s. thank you again for the back and forth , I may have played poker for a very long time , but now i live 5 miles from a casino , and really want to get my game down better. Questions like what this post is about are what im trying to improve upon.
Posted Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:27 am GMT by Tadzio
Putting in almost half your stack hoping to isolate 1-2 limpers with ATo isn't a great play, I'm sorry to say. Push, fold or (I hate advising this, but...) limp. Although it's the right play to fold on the flop, it's painful to do so because of your pre-flop play. It's very difficult to fold there once the flop comes even though you have A-high as well as 0 fold equity... you shouldn't paint yourself into a corner like that.
All of my advice in this thread has been opinion, even the advice you liked.
Posted Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:34 am GMT by kainARGH
| Tadzio wrote: | | All of my advice in this thread has been opinion, even the advice you liked. |
Not where you said ,
| Quote: | | If you KNOW both your cards are live and you KNOW your (singular) opponent has a pair of 9s and an overcard, you have a 1 in 3 chance of winning the hand. 8 dollars for 32 means you'll make money over time. |
 that was pretty solid.
I do agree going all in pre may have been better , but by raiseing 7 and hopeing to catch the other 2 in 3 way action , my only other real move was all in afterward , by raiseing 7 , it was atempting to build a pot rather then steal 4$ in blinds. Personally , I'm trying to cut down on limp-folding , it bothers me , and what bothers me worse is limp-call-(miss the flop)folding. So rather , the way im working my new strategy is if im willing to limp , im going to raise pre ( as long as either my posistion isnt horrible , or i've got an ok read on the players ) or limp and if raised go all in pre ( again as long as i don't feel dominated ). I simply hate just calling off my chips , as lately i just CANNOT hit a flop. I also typically play tight , and smarter players take note , so my raises tend to get a little mroe respect.
Posted Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:37 am GMT by Tadzio
| kainARGH wrote: | given the exact same situation , i KNEW one of my two cards wuold scoop the pot , is it still a bad call VS the 2 all ins AND my opponnent for whom i had 2 live cards?
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Because of the 2 all-ins, an all-in vs your living opponent is -EV no matter what. In order for a play to be +EV vs the all-ins, if you KNOW that one of your cards will scoop (the A, I'm assuming) you have 3 outs to guarentee a scoop. Since they're outs, none of the opponents you're facing can hold an Ace. So you have roughly 14% chance to scoop. This is 1 in 7. 8/32 can be reduced to 1/4. So you need at least 1/4 chance to scoop the pot to justify pushing here. 1/7 chance to scoop the pot is way worse than 1/4.
You should bail on this hand asap.
Posted Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:46 am GMT by kainARGH
Thanks again, you've answered everything.
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