TP - to protect or not to protect? |
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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:01 pm GMT by AHBrownell
So you hold a hand like A  Q in middle position (you raised to 3x the BB preflop) with three players seeing the flop. The pot is 12 BBs. The flop comes Q  8 2  .
Obviously you are going to bet if its checked to you (or likely a small raise is put in) - but the question is should you bet to protect here?
I have noticed that my biggest leaks involve top pair hands. I flop top pair, bet to protect, get reraised and often have to fold because the size of the bet would likely make me pot committed by the turn/river - in situations where I may be drawing dead.
I have thought about possibly only raising the minimum protection amount with hands like this. What I mean is, if your opponent is drawing to the flush, they need around 3:1 on the flop. If you bet more than 50% of the pot you are creating a situation for you opponent to make a mistake. Most players seem to raise 2/3, 3/4, 1x, or even 5/4 the pot size, but is this overkill?
So in the example above - the player could bet 6.5 to 7 BBs rather than 9+ BBs. The advantage of course is that you are building a smaller pot - a smart plan when you have such a weak hand.
The problem of course would be creating a visible difference in betting amounts between vulnerable power hands (sets, straights, etc.) and top pair bets. This is because you might want to overbet in situations where you have much stronger hands.
I have also considered applying the smaller protection bets a % of the time when holding each of these types of hands. So 75% of the time you bet a small protection bet with TP hands, 25% you overbet just as you would with a power hand. Similarly 75% of the time you overbet with power hands, 25% of the time you bet a small protection bet.
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The other option would be to just bet TP hands weakly all the time; but I think this may set us up for bluffs.
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What are people's thoughts on playing hands with top pair?
As an aside my poker earnings come primarily from sets, full houses, flushes, and straights. Its the nut hands against players who overvalue their hands - especially top pair...
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Posted Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:39 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I usually bet top pair in such a way that they would be incorrect to call with a draw based on one-card odds, but without risking a significant amount. 2/3 the pot is plenty. Then, if a blank hits 4th, I often put in a big bet so they'd be making a BIG mistake to call with a draw. Occasionally, you run into someone slowplaying a set making this move, but not especially often.
Play top pair aggressively, but try not to play too big a pot or risk a big part of your stack.
Posted Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:10 am GMT by tame_deuces
Sometimes you have to go to the felt with TPTK, sometimes you don't.
It may sound silly, but it is true. It all depends on who you are playing. I don't think generic rules for when to fold TP is a good idea at all. If AQ is anybody's 'big winner'? Doubtful. But it is a hand you'll have far more often then a set of 6s so I would avoid giving any kind of information as to what kind of hand you are holding based on betting strategies.
Poker is a sum of all our hands, and the way we play the 'weaker hands' will influence how much we make on our strong ones.
A clever lag will for instance tend to lose more money on some bad hands, but will often make up for this in making alot more money from bad players at the table when holding good hands.
So to have a notion that busting on a TP hand, or that becoming pot commited with TP is an inherently bad play is flawed thinking, because this is not always so. Instead this is a line of thinking that should _sometimes_ influence your play, and sometimes not.
Now, that was my clever philosophical no-good NL answer. If you want a boring answer fit for rocky 8-tabling, I think 'bet something, fold quickly' is pretty good.
Posted Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:24 am GMT by AHBrownell
Nice advice guys. Thx.
For others interested in this topic. I found an interesting article over on the Full Tilt page by Chris Furgeson. He bascially explained that hands that have little board texture (no easily made straight draws or flush draws) its smart to just check top pair.
He explained that you are looking to win one large sized bet with these types of hands.
So if that bet comes on the flop, you may get too many chips in a pot (during later rounds) when you are drawing thin or dead. If you check the flop you will tend to build smaller pots. This is good because you will still win a decent sized pot when you have the best hand, but you will lose a smaller pot when you are beat, but intend to see the river.
I have started playing top pair a bit more passively and it seems to be a great technique. I still bet it out in highly textured boards and fold if reraised, but the difference is that I tend to give myself more opportunities to fold when I'm completely dead.
Perfect example was today I had A Q in middle position. A player limped. I raised to 4x BB. The button called and the initial limper also called. The flop came Q 6 4  . The first position player checked. I checked. The button raised 1/2 the pot. The limper raised to 1.5x the pot. Now I of course folded. Turned out it was KQ vs 66. By playing the hand passively I got my opponents to show me I was beat. Had I bet out here, if they had both called - or raised I would have had to slow down (either folding to the reraise right there or possibly firing another futile bullet on the turn).
Playing this way has another advantage too. Some of the time a player will hold a PP like JJ through 77. If you both check the flop and a small card hits on the turn - your opponent may bet into you on the turn/river. So, you might actually win a few bets that you would not have, to these hands which likely would have just folded on the flop to a bet.
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