Very Common, Very Basic Question |
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Posted Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:09 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
Ok. I realize his is a very simple example that happens a lot, but I am pretty curious as to how you NL/Tourney players handle it.
My question has to do with opponents leading out betting after the flop when YOU were the preflop raiser but missed the flop completely. This is typically considered a probe bet, but those bets are typically smaller (say 1/3-1/2 pot).
Last night I encountered a very strange play from a very strange player (he calls me all the time because he thinks I am ALWAYS bluffing)
Blinds: 100/200
Villain: CO (~$6000)
Hero: Button with A  J (~$8000)
Folds to Villain, who calls.
Hero RAISES to 600
Villain Calls.
Flop:
T  5  3
Villain BETS 1000
Now I missed the crap out of that flop, but do I just give up here? To me, folding here looks very weak, but raising might get you into some serious trouble or it could take the pot. If Villain hit that flop or had something good preflop, dont you think he would try a check/raise here since I was the initial aggressor? It is just a puzzling play.
What kind of a line do most of you take in this spot?
BTW:
Last night I called his bet to see what he did on the turn but I turned my J and pushed after he bet again. He called, but never showed his hand, so I am led to believe he put me on a stone cold bluff and I knocked him out.
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Posted Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:15 pm GMT by Johny
On the flop, you have 37bb in your stack, making a move is going to commit a good portion of your stack. You have to be sure your opponent is weak if you plan on stealing the pot. Don't make a move because you feel the need to or because you don't want to look weak.
I think that if you plan on making a move, do it on the flop. I say this because of your chipstack, where if you were deeper I like flat calling the flop and bet/raising the turn, which shows a lot of strenght.
In this situation, I'm probably folding.
Posted Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:23 pm GMT by Dave B
I say raise or fold. If he does if often enough, he will get caught when you do hit.
Another thing I sometimes do in multis is make larger raises w/ AJ than w/ AA KK QQ.
Posted Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:30 am GMT by UrAteUp
I think villian here made an attempt to scare you. Sure he would have had something but not enough the way it appears. You played it well except I agree with Dave here, make a larger pre-flop raise with hands like AJ, AQ, and AK. It never hurts to let him lead the betting and then you catch your card and push or just keep following along and let him hand himself. That is unless the board starts looking scarry. I hate letting someone lead the betting but I do at times.
Posted Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:10 am GMT by snoogins47
I tend to agree with the raise or fold thing, as a general rule... it's all dependent on him though. There are folks out there that almost have to have a set to do this, and some folks that will NEVER do this, unless they totally missed the flop, so it's very hard to tell.
Posted Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:59 am GMT by pokerbrat0582
Most of the time first to act has to stab at it or you would've taken that option. Like you said you missed the flop, he also might have, and being that you got lucky on the turn screwed him.
Posted Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:08 am GMT by red_pen
In this case, I think he's trying to establish whether your initial raise was positional or genuine (and I use the word loosely).
If you had AA, KK, QQ, JJ what would you do?
btw if you knocked him out, then he was all-in. Surely in that case both hands are turned over. i may be mistaken.
Posted Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:54 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
| red_pen wrote: | | btw if you knocked him out, then he was all-in. Surely in that case both hands are turned over. i may be mistaken. |
Or even if they were still face down, I think most online poker rooms allow you to see a players mucked hand by looking through HH.
Posted Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:52 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I think calling is ok sometimes in position if you suspect the other guy doesn't have that much of a hand. This gives you a couple options: one, you make the best hand on the turn, and two, he checks the turn and you take the pot away from him.
A case can also be made for folding or raising, but you have to know your player and the situation. It's been my experience that in middle-late stages of a tournament, players will make moves like this to prevent you from continuation betting, because they suspect that your raise indicates either two face cards or an ace, and thus assume you didn't hit. But, my thinking goes, if they know I'm going to continuation bet, if they had a good hand, they would probably check raise rather than bet out. So, I usually end up raising them, and they fold after cursing under their breaths for a few seconds.
Posted Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:02 am GMT by supafrey
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | I think calling is ok sometimes in position if you suspect the other guy doesn't have that much of a hand. This gives you a couple options: one, you make the best hand on the turn, and two, he checks the turn and you take the pot away from him.
A case can also be made for folding or raising, but you have to know your player and the situation. It's been my experience that in middle-late stages of a tournament, players will make moves like this to prevent you from continuation betting, because they suspect that your raise indicates either two face cards or an ace, and thus assume you didn't hit. But, my thinking goes, if they know I'm going to continuation bet, if they had a good hand, they would probably check raise rather than bet out. So, I usually end up raising them, and they fold after cursing under their breaths for a few seconds. |
Does the class now realize why slow playing is pointless?
Posted Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:30 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
| LeafsFan1122 wrote: | | red_pen wrote: | | btw if you knocked him out, then he was all-in. Surely in that case both hands are turned over. i may be mistaken. |
Or even if they were still face down, I think most online poker rooms allow you to see a players mucked hand by looking through HH. |
This was a live hand at my weekly game. I raised to put him All In, he called and I immediately flipped my AJ over. He just threw his cards in the muck and didnt even want to see the river. So, essentially, he called/mucked.
Posted Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:48 pm GMT by groton
that was a stonecold bluff by him then.
I mean I org was going say he had A/10 maybe.
but now that you said he mucked on the Turn he did not have A/10 since he would of stayed for the River Card
Posted Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:53 pm GMT by zinn0
| groton wrote: | that was a stonecold bluff by him then.
I mean I org was going say he had A/10 maybe.
but now that you said he mucked on the Turn he did not have A/10 since he would of stayed for the River Card |
If it was a stone cold bluff, he wouldn't have called the all-in...
Posted Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:55 pm GMT by groton
hmm yah.
your right
Med Pocket Pair 
Posted Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:13 am GMT by UrAteUp
| groton wrote: | that was a stonecold bluff by him then.
I mean I org was going say he had A/10 maybe.
but now that you said he mucked on the Turn he did not have A/10 since he would of stayed for the River Card |
hehehe...Groton...reread the bottom part of Dats post. Villian did stay for the river.
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