Hidden Hold'em Key #1: Donkbets |
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Posted Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:01 am GMT by snoogins47
Okay, so this isn't the magical key to winning at Limit Hold'em, and I only put #1 in the title in the hopes that it forces me to write more of these things. The basic concepts will apply to NL as well, and I'll try to rant a bit about NL too, but if nothing is mentioned specifically, it's probably about FL.
Anyway, there's been much talk of the 'donkbet' recently, and most of it isn't very positive. In fact, I even remember a quote on that other poker forum that said something to the effect of "Donkbets are never right in normal TAG on TAG warfare." Bollocks, I say.
In the games I regularly play, a few things are typically true:
1)They are usually shorthanded
2)There are almost always some regulars there, that range from "decent" to "pretty dang good"
So, I get into a lot of heads up pots, with people who are reasonably aggressive. In these pots, I probably utilize the "donkbet" way more than most folks would imagine is right, and understanding what it does for you is really, really important. ESPECIALLY turn "donkbets."
For the uninitiated, the 'donkbet' goes something like this: you didn't have the initiative on the last street, you are out of position, and you... bet? Aren't you supposed to check to the raiser/bettor?
The average player seems to be confused by the donkbet... and will often react in specific, exploitable ways. It rips the original raiser out of his comfortable "I'm in position and have the initiative" spot, much moreso than check-raising. It's fun. The key, though, is knowing how opponents react to it. (Of course, this is really the key to everything, but shut up it's my party, and i'll cry if I want to. It's like that song.)
Let's look at a few of the common spots for this:
Donkbetting the Flop:
This comes up all the time in shorthanded hold'em. You call a preflop raise from the blinds, and you're first to act on the flop. Or, your raise gets 3-bet, you call, and you're first to act.
Let's assume that we're just thinking about picking up the pot, or we have a hand that is vulnerable and we would prefer the pot stay small. We're getting 4 to 1 on our bet, which are nice odds. However, look at our opponent: he's getting 5 to 1 on his call. Not terrible, but not terribly good, either.
Compare this to check-raising:
Now, our opponent is getting ~ 7 to 1 on his call, to see the turn card in position. Not only are these significantly better odds (especially in the low pair, two-overcards, gutshotty scenarios, where a fold getting 5 to 1 may have been right, but they need to call now) but you will see in practice that flop check-raises almost never pick up the pot in limit hold'em.
Basically, when we lead the flop, we often force our opponent to proceed in much murkier territory than when we check-raise. When we check-raise, even if it's a guessing game for him (Does he have a pair? A draw? Two small pair, eights and eights?) the play is fairly automatic: bet, call, see what happens on the turn. When we lead, there is a healthier dose of confusion, and the smaller pot often forces much harder decisions on our opponent's part.
This isn't exactly new: Sklansky wrote a whole little section on this precise play in HPFAP. But I've seen quite a few players, even pretty good ones, who will almost never lead the flop here. And that's probably no goot.
Donkbetting The Turn
This, my friends, is where the fun begins.
This is more of a 'traditional' donkbet: this is the one that all the other poker forumites look at with disdain and confusion. And boy howdy, can it be a money maker.
The two types of opponents to really look out for:
1)"F-you, donkbetting fish, I raise."
These guys are lots of fun, and when you have a reasonable hand, there's almost no way to make more money in a pot than to donkbet the turn. I don't know what it is: if it's the confusion, or what, but there are quite a few players who will raise turn donkbets all the time... all the time. Some of these players are pretty logical: they'll often fold to turn check-raises... but when somebody donks the turn, then 3-bets them... their brows furrow, their eyes start bleeding, and they call them down with second pair, just because. Or, they start going absolutely nuts with pretty strong hands. It's almost as if the turn bet button turns into a "make my opponent a LAG" button, or a "get way more value out of my set than I ever should" button. These guys are lots of fun, but you need to only do it when you have a hand that can stand a lot of pressure. It's fun though, when you collect 6BB on the turn and river with your set, whereas you would've made 3 if you check-raised.
2)"WTF could he have? I'll call him down"
These players are probably more fun. Playing against these guys, especially when they're otherwise reasonably decent players, is great: they take all the confusion out of confusing hands. You know, heads up, you flop third pair, probably have the best hand, but you're out of position, and don't know what to do? Call his continuation bet on the flop, bet the turn, bet the river, beat his Ace-Seven high, and move on. It becomes so easy to get information out of them this way, and to get value out of mediocre hands: if you bet the turn and get raised, well, he's got you beat. If he just calls, well, that just says 'I have cards in front of me,' and you can bet-fold or check-call the river depending.
3)"Woah, I fold."
Just kidding. These guys aren't playing limit hold'em. I am astounded at the tiny amount of folds I see against turn donkbets. So, ignore #3.
River donkbetting
Do it when you have a hand and your opponent likes to take free showdowns when offered, or when the river card was ludicrously scary, basically. You guys can figure it out.
What does this all mean? Well, I don't know. This is probably one of my least-structured posts ever. I'm not even too sure what I just typed. But, to keep it short and sweet:
Don't be afraid to "donkbet."
Not only do people seem to often react to it in predictable, exploitable, and often humorous ways... but it's all part of a balanced strategy, and it goes a VERY LONG way in negating your positional disadvantage.
If you never donkbet, you are seriously exacerbating the shittiness that goes with being out of position.
I'll save the positional advantage rants for another post.
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Posted Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:03 am GMT by tame_deuces
And its cheap! Always an important point for NL play.
It can be a powerful tool for pot control when holding questionable hands, though as a metagame consideration that implies that you should ofcourse also sometimes donkbet with powerful hands (if you think your opponent pays attention).
Let's say we flop something like K 8 6 in an unraised pot. We have 7 7 in the BB. We don't have a very big desire to bet this hand out right away. We check and button bets, sb folds and action to us. if we know button often position bets, but then again, the king is a common card he could have. So we could call and lead turn. We could ofcourse raise the flop, but since we basically have a hand we'll toss away if button re-raises or calls w/turn blank AND a turn card could be great for our hand (a turn card giving us an open-ender will most likely give us 10 outs for the river, don't underestimate backdoors!) because of the backdoor draw, we can combine 'drawing' the turn with donkbetting the turn and get two things for the prize of one.
It is also a great metagame ploy for us if we happen to stumble into a backdoor straight or a set, because most players will peg us as complete donks.
Ofcourse, we're also 'giving away a card', so a close study of the flop texture should always be used before we donkbet. 'what is he betting?' should always be considered.
Posted Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:29 pm GMT by Phil14312
I have recently been playing strictly 6-max and the donkbet is a key weapon. As I was reading this post, perfect donk-bet situation. I'm in the BB with A  5 and the button raises, SB folds, and I call. Flop is QJQ, I lead out, button raises, I call. Blank hits the turn and I lead out (donkbet) and button folds. Now, if he calls, depending on the river I can either check/fold or check/call. But I think giving up with these hands especially in short-handed game is a big mistake. He raises the turn its an easy fold.
And I find the absolute best use of the donkbet is what you mentioned Snoogins, I just want to reiterate. When you have 2nd or 3rd pair and a probably best-hand against a lone opponent who raised pre-flop. You check/call the continuation bet and then lead the turn. If he raises, you are done. If he calls, bet the river for value. Its amazingly effective
Posted Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:35 am GMT by TxShadow
Do you think this move becomes less effective at low limits ($.50/1 and $1/2, even $2/4)?
I don't know what stakes you normally play, so I'm just curious. Heck, maybe it's even more effective at low stakes.
Posted Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:21 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Maybe this isn't the same thing that Snoogins is talking about. This might fall more as a slowplay. Just this afternoon on my lunch time /poker time I am playing in a $0.02/$0.04 ring game of 6 people. I pick up 10 2 . It is limped around to me so I figure I might as well play the "Doyle Brunson". Flop comes out 222. I was delighted to say the least. Everyone checks around to me and I bet just a regular bet of $0.04. 4 call. Turn card is a J . It is checked around to me and I bet again. Just a simple donk bet of $0.04. This time someone raises to $0.12. 3 call as do I. River card is a K . Checked around to the guy who raised on the J and he puts out another bet of $0.16. Someone raises him to make it $0.32. He pushes all-in for about $0.76 more. Two call and then it comes to me. I push and go all-in ($1.25) more. 2 fold and 1 calls. He flips over his cards to show AK. I flip over mine to show the quad 2s. In the chat window the two other guys were discussing how they each had a J.
Posted Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:33 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I love Snoogs. Two days ago, on three separate occasions on Full Tilt, I bet the flop, had someone raise me, call, then bet again on the turn--all three times, they folded, and twice I got a "wtf" in the chat box.
Long live the Donk Bet! 
Posted Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:46 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | I love Snoogs. |
I wouldn't go that far to say I love Snoogins. Like him yes and think he is a smart person and a good poker player but no way can I say I love him...
Posted Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:43 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| UrAteUp wrote: | Maybe this isn't the same thing that Snoogins is talking about. This might fall more as a slowplay...
*snip*
...He flips over his cards to show AK. I flip over mine to show the quad 2s. In the chat window the two other guys were discussing how they each had a J. |
I'd try to clarify what a donk bet was but what's the point?
Anyway, back in the day I never donk bet. It's funny how a name can alter someone's view on a play. If it was called a shark bet I would have used it all the time.
Here's a common spot where I use it:
Me in the BB with 9To, it folds to CO who raises, it folds to me and I call the flop is Q33 (or some ugly flop that probably missed everyone). I c/c the flop and bet the turn, he folds KQ face up--it's badass.
Posted Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:48 pm GMT by TxShadow
| UrAteUp wrote: | | Maybe this isn't the same thing that Snoogins is talking about. This might fall more as a slowplay... |
Here ya go:
1. donkbet
n. In poker, a bet made when first to act on a given street, after having checked and called the preceding street(s). Formerly "gaybet", before that "bet-from-nowhere".
v. the act of making a donkbet
My donkbet on 6th street was meant to represent the flush I had showing.
I donkbet the river with my weak hand, to avoid giving a free showdown.
Posted Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:36 pm GMT by AHBrownell
So applying this to NL -
Are you suggesting that the donkbet is a good play when you are ahead? Or behind?
It looks a lot like a bluff I often make. Call the flop to bet the turn out of position. It looks like you were trapping on the flop and ppl with medium holdings will generally fold.
Is this what you are talking about? What I don't really understand in your article is what your intended outcome for this play is. It seems like you are suggesting that when you have a strong hand like a set of fours you will make this play to get your opponent upset. At which point they will look at your sign of strength and raise? That doesn't make sense to me. I would think that instead it would cause your opponent to fold a hand that would have paid you more - the vast majority of the time.
I see this as another way to make plays at pots with players who are "good" players. They will be very aware of what your bets suggest about your hand. If you donkbet - they will usually fold. Thus this is another opportunity to bluff. If this play is intersperced with check-raises as bluffs occassionally AND with the exact same play with made hands in situations where you don't mind if your opponents fold (like in 5 way pots for instance) then you make yourself very difficult to read AND you are likely to pick up more money bluffing in the donkbet style.
If I am completely missing the value you are pointing out please smack me in the head and clarify. 
Posted Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:09 pm GMT by tame_deuces
AHBrownell: The donkbet is generally very different in NL and FL, for obvious reasons. Those two games also have a completely different 'flow' of playing, which I won't get into but just assume you know what I mean. The OP pointed out that it mainly referred to donkbetting FL. In NL you'll see alot of folding to the donkbet, in FL you will see less folding and more calldowns or raises. Which is good because it often earns you alot more bets or lose you less bets than the alternative which is checkraising.
In NL donkbetting is good because it is cheap, confusing and alot of hands better than a semi-strong hand will fold anyway. So it is both a bluff and a blocking play all at once.
My two cents.
Posted Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:55 pm GMT by snoogins47
| AHBrownell wrote: | So applying this to NL -
Are you suggesting that the donkbet is a good play when you are ahead? Or behind? |
Well, it depends
The main points I was attempting to make:
1)The 'donkbet' is an important part of a balanced strategy: if you never do it against players who are paying attention, you're probably giving up a lot
2)The 'donkbet' is one of those interesting plays that often confuses people, and makes them react in interesting, often exploitable ways. So, it's important to recognize this, and also recognize how opponents react, so as to determine what sorts of hands you should be doing it with, which can often include my favorite category of hands: Nothing, with a 9 kicker.
As for when to do it with strong hands: well, I was referring to a type of player that I've seen surprisingly frequently in FL, who will raise turn 'donks' with almost any reasonable holding, and plenty of hands that aren't very reasonable. I'm sure there are plenty of times to do it in NL too, but that's all up for you to decide.
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