laying down Ks preflop.... |
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Posted Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:14 pm GMT by Ensano
Kinda just wanted to get the general opinion on this as it seems that a lot of the time lately I've been running my pocket Ks into aces.
Now people will play AA pretty much 1 of two ways. They'll either just flat call, or reraise. With this in mind if someone raises and then you reraise most strong hands (AK, AQ, QQ...) will slow down a little and at least see the flop first whereas if the villian is holding aces uless they're slowplaying they'll usually come back at you with a reraise. When this happens would anyone be willing to lay down their kings?
Keep in mind this is low NL (.25/.50 blinds) and an average player who you really haven't seen go all in with nothing...
***** Hand History for Game 3569667088 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, February 17, 18:44:16 ET 2006
Table Mudslide (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: Pukco ( $22.68 )
Seat 5: Ensano ( $24.85 )
Seat 6: onemountain ( $22.11 )
Seat 1: ABIRD222 ( $69.53 )
Seat 8: hitr2345 ( $25 )
Seat 7: PharmaAce ( $29.84 )
Seat 2: gmo20 ( $4.90 )
Seat 9: Montgomery00 ( $11.97 )
Seat 4: Mellow1982 ( $24 )
Seat 10: Tartan1986 ( $24.75 )
hitr2345 posts small blind $0.10.
Montgomery00 posts big blind $0.25.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Ensano K  K 
Tartan1986 raises $1.
>You have options at Ebb Tide Table!.
ABIRD222 folds.
gmo20 folds.
Pukco folds.
Mellow1982 folds.
Ensano raises $3.
onemountain folds.
hitr2345 folds.
Montgomery00 folds.
Tartan1986 raises $6.08.
>You have options at Ebb Tide Table!.
Ensano is all-In.
Tartan1986 is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** 2 9  3
** Dealing Turn ** 7
** Dealing River ** 4
Tartan1986 shows A A a pair of aces.
Ensano shows K K a pair of kings.
Ensano wins $0.10 from side pot #1 with a pair of kings.
Tartan1986 wins $47.40 from the main pot with a pair of aces.
hitr2345 has left the table.
Should I have pushed here or slowed down and just called to avoid any ace on the flop or even just gotten out of the hand completely like in this hand....
Game #1658263073: Hold'em NL ($0.15/$0.25) - 2006/02/23 - 22:38:34 (ET)
Table "Process" Seat 9 is the button.
Seat 1: pdressler ($24.76 in chips)
Seat 2: retus ($23.25 in chips)
Seat 3: Torpedoe ($19.25 in chips)
Seat 4: Zymsmith ($10 in chips)
Seat 5: lintmail2 ($26.30 in chips)
Seat 6: Opeth22 ($10.70 in chips)
Seat 7: Opeth22 ($17.43 in chips)
Seat 8: perowlan1 ($35.40 in chips)
Seat 9: xrocky ($24.90 in chips)
Seat 10: Ensano ($31.25 in chips)
Ensano: posts small blind $0.15
pdressler: posts big blind $0.25
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Ensano  
retus: folds
Torpedoe: folds
lintmail2: folds
Opeth22: folds
Opeth22: folds
perowlan1: raises to $0.50
xrocky: folds
Ensano: raises to $1.50
pdressler: folds
perowlan1: raises to $35.40 and is all-in
Ensano: folds
Returned uncalled bets $33.90 to perowlan1
perowlan1: doesn't show hand
perowlan1 collects $3.25 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $3.25 Main pot $3.25 Rake $0
Seat 1: pdressler (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: retus folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Torpedoe folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: lintmail2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Opeth22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Opeth22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: perowlan1 collected $3.25
Seat 9: xrocky (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Ensano (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
****HAND ENDS****
Now in this hand, in my defense, after hours of playing i've never seen this player push preflop or make such a large reraise and with that I only had 1.50$ invested... so I got away. After the hand he was telling everyone he had aces, but obviously that can't be trusted too much..
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Posted Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:13 am GMT by Ensano
So I guess my question is can you fold KK preflop to a reraise or do you just go broke with it?
Posted Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:41 am GMT by LeafsFan1122
Your first hand is just bad luck. Not much you could have done. As for the second hand, I'm not sure. It's easy to say "Yeah, he had aces", but really it's so unlikley. IMO the villain has AK or smaller pair. I don't understnad why he would push his whole stack with aces. I'd be interested to see other responses too though. If villain had AA in this situation, I'd probably go broke with the kings.
Posted Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:33 am GMT by greathuskie
never laid kings down preflop, prolyl never will
did you change the first hand? as in edit the hand history, the preflop action has 9 dollars total, but the total won pot was 47?
Posted Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:50 am GMT by wEbMaStEr
| greathuskie wrote: | never laid kings down preflop, prolyl never will
|
Virtually impossible for me too, altho i'm sure i could do it under ideal conditions, i don't know what they would be tho.
Posted Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:52 am GMT by Johny
Dan Harrington explained it very well in his books when he said "I'm not good enough to laydown pocket kings pre-flop and neither are you."
Posted Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:58 am GMT by zinn0
| Johny4444 wrote: | | Dan Harrington explained it very well in his books when he said "I'm not good enough to laydown pocket kings pre-flop and neither are you." |
Action Dan, always keepin' it real.
Posted Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:48 am GMT by Geno
The only situation where folding Kings pre-flop may be considered 'right' is in a tourney, one away from the bubble with a short-stack all-in and a stack that has you covered calling before you. Even then, you may as well call and take the bottom money spot (you hope) but it may be considered right to fold here. Oh, and it may of course be right to fold KK from the BB if the entire rest of the table has gone all-in before you 
Posted Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:04 am GMT by Hurricane Ham
Once, and only once, against another deep stack at a NL100 table.
But I felt pretty good about it, given that the player was solid, and the hand was raised, reraised, reraised, and reraised. 4 bets preflop in NL generally means aces.
I'd have called the second hand and cursed why he would push with aces like that and not try to get more out of them, since you don't have KK nearly often enough in that situation to make it profitable in the long run. When stacks aren't too deep (<100BB) I'm going broke with kings damn near every time.
Posted Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:17 am GMT by greathuskie
| Geno wrote: | | The only situation where folding Kings pre-flop may be considered 'right' is in a tourney, one away from the bubble with a short-stack all-in and a stack that has you covered calling before you. Even then, you may as well call and take the bottom money spot (you hope) but it may be considered right to fold here. Oh, and it may of course be right to fold KK from the BB if the entire rest of the table has gone all-in before you |
in a satellite, yes. in a cash tourney, never. id call/all in knowing im a favorite and go for the easy triple up, should let me coast to several money spots higher then just making the bubble.
Posted Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:13 pm GMT by Ensano
I understand what everyone means about the odds of them not having aces, but I play a lot of cash games and, at the NL50 anyways, except for the maniacs I rarely see someone get all in preflop. Now I'm not saying people don't do it but when you see someone play over 200 hands and never go all in preflop; all of a sudden there's a raise a reraise and they push, with nothing invested in the pot you're either against a strong ace (70/30) or aces and I'd give the odds that they have aces at 50/50. Don't know who said it but isn't it a bad idea to get all your money in if you're either a small favorite or a huge underdog.
Posted Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:38 pm GMT by Johny
Being a 70/30 favorite isn't a small favorite though. If you can fold KK in that spot, all the more power to you. I know that I can't.
Posted Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:40 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
And if you're against AK, which seems most logical to me, you're actually ~90%.
Posted Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:45 pm GMT by Johny
Actually, KK is a 70/30 favorite vs. AKos and a 65/35 favorite vs. AKs.
Posted Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:47 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
Sorry, you're right. I accidently thought of AA vs AK.
Posted Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:49 pm GMT by Johny
That's what I figured, that would make sense.
Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:38 pm GMT by BeerWench13
I've never folded KK preflop. I'm not sure that I could unless I'd actually seen my opponent's AA. Otherwise, I'm going broke with it.
Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:19 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Meh. With 100BB stacks & low stakes, I pay off AA with KK, no biggie.
You'll get AA when someone else has KK another day anyway. What goes around comes around.
Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:58 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
If I haven't entered the pot yet, I would consider folding KK in only a few situations.
1. In a cash game or tournament, if it has been raised and re-raised before me and a VERY tight player is the re-raiser who is highly unlikely to do so without KK or AA.
2. If I am one off the bubble in a major tournament and I really need to cash, and risk going broke with KK.
3. It is very early in a tournament and I have a huge M, and I am confident that I don't need to risk a lot on marginal situations. Take this year's WPT Championship for example. Players started with 50,000 in chips, and blinds of 50-100. No way in hell I would ever call all-in before the flop at this point with anything other than AA, because what could your opponent be so in love with? Even if he has AK, I don't think I want to risk my tournament life with KK at this point if I think I can push my advantages even more later (note that players like Doyle Brunson and Phil Hellmuth often take this line early in major tournies).
Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:07 pm GMT by kainARGH
| Quote: | | Players started with 50,000 in chips, and blinds of 50-100. |
 Thats ...... HUGE!!!
Posted Wed May 17, 2006 12:29 pm GMT by shorn7
KK can be laidd down preflop if you know your opponent well enough. There are some rocks out there who when they make that 3rd bet for close to half their stack, you can bet they have AA. Personally, I have laid down KK twice preflop in a cash game. Both times, I was out of position and the player who made the 4th bet in this case (since I raised, they re-raised and I made the third bet) was very tight and predictable. In fact, I specifically made the third raise in both cases to find out if the re-raise was with AK or QQ.
In general though, I will simply call a re-raise from EP and a third raise from LP with KK if I don't know the player that well. I certainly don't want to get all my money in pre-flop (in a deep stack game) and then see an Ace flop, so I tend to slow down with KK sometimes to see if I get a safe flop. I adhere t Ciaffone and Brier's suggestion that if your opponets stack is less than 2x the current pot, then you push him all-in. If more, you can slow down and re-evaluate on the flop.
Posted Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:57 am GMT by mrcfkane
one time i was in the bb early in a 6 man sng
there was a raise, call, big rereaise and a reraise all in... at this point i thought it was safe to lay down kings and i was correct. only time i ever did it
Posted Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:21 pm GMT by Jauron
Laid them down once preflop, guy was selling it hard and I decided to believe him, he did show.
I've laid them down twice to a 9 high board on the flop. Got shown aces one time and the other time I was up against the other two kings. The second time it was to a paired board, but the funny thing is we had a guy all in who hit his Ace on the river to scoop the pot anways.
Most of the time I'm just going broke with them though, too many players play AK and QQ (even JJ) like Aces so it's hard to want to lay them down.
Posted Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:23 pm GMT by Ensano
bump..... just wondering if there is any new thoughts on this
Posted Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:08 am GMT by misterjokerboy
I have never laid down KK pre-flop, I laid down KK after the turn on a similar looking board to the first one, because I was sure the other guy had aces (there was a third player in the pot as well). It turns out I was right, having said that I suspected he had aces due to the preflop action so nearly laid them down preflop.
In fact, I've found the hand:
http://www.pokerhand.org/?623711
I'm not claiming to be a great player because of folding here, but I was sure he had aces. Most times I'm going broke though, and I wouldn't critisise anyone for doing the same.
You'd have to have a really good read to lay down kings on a board like that, and an even better one to lay them down preflop.
There have been plenty of times where I've been all in preflop with Kings thinking "oh shit he's got aces" only to find out he's got QQ or JJ or some other random hand.
Posted Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:23 am GMT by snoogins47
I don't think I've done it in a cash game, and I don't think I ever will. I seem to recall doing it in a satellite or something though.
For most people, if we don't count satellites, a situation where we should be folding KK preflop just probably won't ever arise. It's just such a massive mistake against anything that's not AA that it's unreasonable to expect that there's many times we'll ever be right to do it.
Posted Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:11 am GMT by shorn7
I think the bottom line is that in a game where the stacks are 100BB's or less, it would be a big error to lay KK down. If the game is 300 BB's or more, then it is a different story to arbitrarily felt with KK all the time.
This illustrates and important concept about stack sizes: the same hand can and should be played very differently when you have a short stack, a medium stack or a deep stack. For reference, Sklansky goes through this in his relatively new NL book with pocket 8's. Definitely worth a read (and re-read, and re-read....).
Posted Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:52 am GMT by nicthestick
I needed to lay down KK
130 person live game
34 left
blinds at 2000/4000
I have 46000
new player at my left, And I have BB
New player raises to 25000
all fold to the button who goes in the tank.
he reluctantly pushes allin for 38000
I look at KK
Im all in 42000
New guy calls
Button QQ
Me KK
new guy AA
Moral of the stupid story is sometimes we need to think about where we want to go, not where we are.
Posted Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:28 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
| nicthestick wrote: | I needed to lay down KK
130 person live game
34 left
blinds at 2000/4000
I have 46000
new player at my left, And I have BB
New player raises to 25000
all fold to the button who goes in the tank.
he reluctantly pushes allin for 38000
I look at KK
Im all in 42000
New guy calls
Button QQ
Me KK
new guy AA
Moral of the stupid story is sometimes we need to think about where we want to go, not where we are. |
Are you implying that you should have folded the KK?
Posted Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:53 pm GMT by nicthestick
clearly
Posted Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:23 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
| nicthestick wrote: | | clearly |
You're wrong though.
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:32 pm GMT by AHBrownell
Posted Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:12 am GMT by tame_deuces
| AHBrownell wrote: | Personally, I would fold kings preflop if a player has a very low preflop raise percentage and low VP$IP (via poker tracker) and is putting in a 3rd or 4th raise against me preflop. Against a player like this I would rarely ever want to reraise preflop if I'm in position. I'd rather see a flop and try to judge from their post-flop betting. I tend to play small pots with small hands - one pair, even a big pair - really is a small hand. I'm more inclined to play a hand like this smaller preflop because after the flop I can better gauge where I'm at - erring on folding more than calling to the river.
That being said - I tend to play AA and KK pretty passively most of the time after the flop. I feel like you win the most money with these hands when you call down opponents who are bluffing/overplaying top pair, than when you are trying to get all the money in with such a weak post-flop hand... |
I don't want to be rude, but there are alot of fairly bad points in this point.
Any hold'em players two most winning hands will over time be AA and KK. Trying to keep the pot 'low' preflop with these hand is outright bad poker. They are the true moneymakers of hold'em and we have to play these big hands accordingly. The only reason for keeping the pot low is to make it bigger later (3 betting vs calling etc).
As for playing them passively after the flop, that can work nicely at times but don't overdo it either.
Also you call it a 'weak' postflop hand, which it clearly isn't, I don't really understand that assumption. KK should play well after the flop in any poker game.
And when playing preflop we don't really care about what cards can come because we don't know them. We only know we got a powerhouse and that hopefully we can sell it to some sucker.
Posted Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:37 am GMT by AHBrownell
Posted Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:48 pm GMT by snoogins47
Tame: since you don't want to be rude, I'll go ahead and do it for you.
| Quote: | | My problem with big pot preflop poker, even with big hands, is that you somewhat commit yourself to go broke on a lot of boards. If you put in 1/8 of your chips preflop. The board comes unders. You bet the pot and your opponent calls. Try getting away from the hand now. You just cannot because the pot is too big. You bet the turn, and your opponent moves in, are you folding? You have like 1/3 to 1/4 of your chips left. |
This is not inherently a bad thing at all, until you start operating on the "lol weak hand I gotta TRY TO FOLD IT!" premise. Obviously, most of us don't. Trying to play with the sole goal of "letting ourself get away from the hand" is bad, bad, bad poker.
| Quote: | | I'd rather play a pot of about 30% of my stack, not the whole thing. If your opponent is willing to go broke on a hand, do you really think they cannot beat one pair? |
This is stupid. The first sentence is arbitrary and useless. Continuing on, we hit a gross generalization that amounts to straw-man garbage. If there's situations where we're pretty certain the player must be able to beat one pair, and we have one pair, well we fold. That doesn't have anything to do with anything.
| Quote: | | KK and AA are weak hands after the flop. The average hand in hold'em is two pair. It might be a weakness I have, but I'm willing to fold big pairs after the flop. Phil Gordon talks about this in the little green book. He'd rather be a guy getting it all in with a set, then the guy calling with an overpair... |
Wow, shocker. I'd rather be the guy getting it all in with a set than calling with an overpair too. I'd rather have sex with Elisha Cuthbert than Angelina Jolie. That doesn't mean I'll throw Angie out of bed.
Not to mention, "AA and KK are very strong hands after the flop most of the time" doesn't mean "WE MUST NEVER FOLD AN OVERPAIR." That straw-man over there is getting his ASS kicked. Take it easier on him.
And what the hell is this "average hand in Hold'em is two pair" thing? There's way more than enough equivocation here that I can safely say that it is entirely irrelevant. That certainly only holds true for a certain number of players showing down their hands all the way to the river, and guess what: overpairs get shown down as "two pair" pretty damned often. So, yeah, elaborate on this, and more importantly explain how in the world this could possibly be relevant.
| Quote: | | Sometimes you will go broke with big pairs - but I think if you play well after the flop, why not see a flop and trap a weak opponent, rather then have a player trap you with a strong hand... |
This just doesn't even seem to make sense. So the whole post boils down to "I don't like committing money before the flop with AA/KK, because they're bad hands AFTER the flop, so why not keep the pot small before the flop, so we can trap our opponent with a band hand after the flop, instead of having our opponent trap us with a 'monster hand' which he almost cannot possibly do since we've basically got the nuts preflop but...
I guess what I'm saying here is
"What?"
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