Very pissed off , but was a right? :( |
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Posted Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:59 pm GMT by kainARGH
I'm seriously just so depressed , But I know i shouldnt be. I cant help but get angry , just because Im still on a sh1t streek with live NL at my local casino , and i play like once a week now and my sh1t streek just refuses to go away.
But heres the scenario , and im a little confused , as the odds calculator is saying im only going to win 26% of the time?
*** some info***
Myself 28$
utg raiser around 25-30#
shorty 12$
all other callers had about what i did , maybe more.
blinds 1$ 1$ sb bb
Info on players to come. Ask for more info if you like
SB 1$
BB 1$
UTG 6$
short stack all in 12$
call 12$
folds to me
I call 12$ A  k 
folds to cuttoff calls 12$
fold
BB call
UTG all in 25$
calls all around , myself included. I was getting aprox 4 to 1 on my money after the all in player.
Not knowing anything else , am i correct to call in this spot if my ace is live and my king is live?
About the players , I smooth called curious what would happen behind me. However utg is a caotic player , very loose above average aggressive. shorty all in was as loose as they come , pissing money away ( in this hand he turned over A2o ) and the caller after him called 'to give money back' ( used this excuse a couple times earlyer calling with random hands , usually decent but not GREAT ) the cutoff caller also played marginal hands , and i felt she didnt have anything to be worried about. So in other words i felt i easily had 2 maybe 3 players dominated , and there had to be 1 pair out there QQ or less.
Anyway , i got a f*cking fantastic flop ( so i thought ) ,
10 6 4
Anywas , im half biching , half curious what others would do ( and don't bother saying 'fold' unless you have a good reason behind it , all i saw was 4.5ish to 1 on my money drawing to the nut pair and most likly battleing 2 lower pp's.
to those curious , cut off lady had 10 10 , all in short stack had a2o , from what i could gather re-raiser all in had jj or qq or AQs , and the smooth caller said he had spades , yet id seen him re-raise a couple times when he was strong , so i highly doubt he had AQs or AKs , my guess is kqs jqs or there abouts K high at best.
thoughts?
I'm still steaming , not that i took a bad beat or anything, but fukcing i really wanted to win this and end my sh1t streek at this particuliar casino.
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Posted Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:40 pm GMT by Dave B
Fold preflop
Posted Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:28 pm GMT by kainARGH
| Dave B wrote: | | Fold preflop |
ok , would your answer still be the same knowing:
A. utg raiser , you've seen raise with AXo , you've seen him call large raises pre with K6o , in other words aggressive , but not being even the slightest bit picky about his hands.
B. the short stack all in earlyer called a large pre flop all in with q8s , raised preflop with just crap crap crap.
C. the guy smooth calling , you know if he had a pp above 5's or a big ace , would reraise here , but didnt.
This was the action in front of me. In other words , theres a 50/50 chance utg raiser I have dominated , and a strong possiblity I've got 1 of the otehr two dominated. Other then that , worst you fear is UTG has a pp , but again its 50/50 , everyone else your good against.
Is this still a fold? Sincere question. Just want to hear your reasoning on the preflop fold , aside from the simple fact its a very risky play to call / raise.
*edit* keep in mind we've eliminated AA and KK as possible hands.
Posted Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:47 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Dave B wrote: | | Fold preflop |
Posted Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:13 am GMT by Soup_dog
Well, it sounds like you are playing at an incredibly loose table with terrible terrible players. At these kind of tables you are going to see wild wild swings if you try to play loose with them.
In these kind of situations position becomes MUCH more important and you really need to tighten up. AK is a great starting hand but it's not going to win it for you without catching anything. (Especially with that many players in the pot.)
With this bunch of donks playing you need to wait for a decent pocket pair or limp in in late position with a decent drawing hand and hope you hit. Another problem is your low chip stack. You can't make bets that would scare these boneheads out of the hand.
So I guess I am recommending you tighten up even more (Yes, I know AK is a good starting hand.) and pay close attention to table position. With that many people in the hand someone is bound to have or hit at least a pair.
Posted Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:03 am GMT by Geno
What is the buy-in at 1/1NL at your casino? I'm not sure $28 is a good stack to be sat on at any time in that game...........
Posted Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:21 am GMT by Mike_M4tusow
| kainARGH wrote: |
Not knowing anything else , am i correct to call in this spot if my ace is live and my king is live?
|
Yeah you would be correct to call if you knew your A and K were live. But thats a big IF.
Posted Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:29 pm GMT by jimmer
| Soup_dog wrote: |
With this bunch of donks playing you need to wait for a decent pocket pair or limp in in late position with a decent drawing hand and hope you hit. Another problem is your low chip stack. You can't make bets that would scare these boneheads out of the hand.
|
You used the word "donks" and "bonehead" in the same paragraph!
Niceone!
Posted Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:58 pm GMT by BeerWench13
I agree with the group here. Fold preflop. AK is a great hand heads up or maybe with 2 others in the pot. There are too many players in this pot.
Everyone seemed to be a shortstacked too. Did someone sit and take everyone's chips and then walk away? $30 is not enough to play $1/1 IMO.
Posted Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:16 pm GMT by kainARGH
Depending on the table , the game usualy isnt this out of control. Buy in is 20$ minimum , 40$ max. To any curious , I bought in 30$.
| Quote: | | Yeah you would be correct to call if you knew your A and K were live. But thats a big IF. |
Well thanks for that much , And i was 99% sure both my ace and my king were live......period. I wouldnt donk my money off if i even had a 20% chance in my mind that I was up VS aces or kings.
To everyones else , telling me to fold does me absolutly no good unless you give a reason why , and hopefully a good one. Otherwise your just another ( no offence to anyone here ) useless opinion .....I need a reason if im to learn anything here.
Obviously the play is very risky , but look at it this way:
more then half the time , im above 30% to win , and I was getting 3x to 1 on my money , at worst im 25% to win and im still getting 3x to 1 on my money , where x = dead money + random caller possiblity.
| Quote: | | So I guess I am recommending you tighten up even more (Yes, I know AK is a good starting hand.) |
Err , thats not really what this post is about. Obviously i could fold and not do anything risky , but im in this to win over the long run , which was why I went into the fray here. This is a pot odds question , not a how to play tight VS the donks. I'm not trying to be rude here , but tighten up ? ako is 5th best hand , depending on who you ask 
I'm getting the impression no one is reading what I've posted on the other players. Theres over a 50% chance I've got 2 players dominated and Im not up against a pocket pair. At the absolutle worst , my ace is drawing to the nuts , my king is drawing to the nuts , and im getting 3x to 1 on my money.
Oh well , This is my last post on this subject , not getting anywhere.
Posted Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:25 pm GMT by weirdofreek
You played great. You Had great reads and got unlucky. There now you've heard what you want to. I have been a long time lurker (sp?) here before i made my first post and I still only post when I have a solid opinion no one has brought up or a LEGIT question so you know what I am about to say comes from the heart.
There are a number of really good poker players here and if you don't want their opinions don't ask for them.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:27 am GMT by kainARGH
| weirdofreek wrote: | You played great. You Had great reads and got unlucky. There now you've heard what you want to. I have been a long time lurker (sp?) here before i made my first post and I still only post when I have a solid opinion no one has brought up or a LEGIT question so you know what I am about to say comes from the heart.
There are a number of really good poker players here and if you don't want their opinions don't ask for them. |
swing and a miss.
and just for fun; I asked people to say why. No one said why , except Soup_dog , whom I politly disagreed with ( I felt it was polite , if it wasn't , im honestly sorry ^^ ).
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:09 am GMT by BeerWench13
| kainArgh wrote: | | I asked people to say why. No one said why , except Soup_dog |
| BeerWench13 wrote: | | I agree with the group here. Fold preflop. AK is a great hand heads up or maybe with 2 others in the pot. There are too many players in this pot. |
If you want verbage, I can give it to you. For once I was being succinct.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:26 am GMT by Soup_dog
I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. Heck, you should talk to my wife.
IMHO opinion, even though AKo is a great starter hand, it's just not going to hold up against that many players in the pot. (As wenchie said)
The problem is, you were out of position each time you made a fairly reasonable call to a large raise. This would have worked if it was just you and the raiser in the pot. Unfortunately, with two of you in the pot, that just made juicier odds for the guys limping behind you to call as well.
Now, to be honest, despite the juicy odds, they were complete donks to be in the pot with those hands in the first place.
I would say the root cause would be trying to play this hand out of position in a very very loose table. By tightening up, I am referring to both position and hand selection, not just hand selection.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:22 am GMT by kainARGH
apologies wench , that was aimed more so at dave and sean , but I was wrong , you did give a reason 
-edit
IE my posistion , re-looking over my first post I may not have been clear. Out of 9 players , I was 7th to act - 1st and 2nd being SB and BB. Just cut-off and button behind me + blinds.
Are you saying I was out of posistion due to the re-raise?
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:29 am GMT by Johny
Don't expect many serious responses from Dave or Sean.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:36 am GMT by BeerWench13
A raise and re-raise in front of you usually means you have a coin flip at best with AK. We're saying don't risk your stack with that many players in the hand when you MUST nail the board to win.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:39 am GMT by kainARGH
Ok , my final thought:
IF ....... IF 
UTG raiser has Ax ( not ak ) or Kx 50% of the time , and the other 50% of the time he has a PP QQ or less.
Re-raiser has any two cards 95% of the time , not AK not a PP.
Next caller has suited connectors - 70% of the time including a king - other 30 % its not including a king ( 10js qjs )
And now I'm all in and get called by all 3 of these players. If we ran this scenario 5000 times....am I makeing money?
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:52 am GMT by Dave B
If ifs and but were candy and nuts, we would all have a merry Xmas.
What if they had 22 33 44, then you are looking great!
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:22 am GMT by kainARGH
I can go back and forth all day dave ( at work , not too much to do )
I said IF to be modest , but thats how I saw the situation. I know I saw it correctly , the only X factor was one of the blinds deciding to come into the pot. She was a dealer there ( and I'm told dealers like alot of action ) so if she wanted to see a flop , she was going to see a flop.
While were at it , how about I was up VS QQ JJ and 22 instead , that would have been much more fun.
@beerwench
Again , I'm looking if my pot odds were correct , in that if I ran this identicle situation 5000 times , If im coming out ahead. If this were a tournement hand , No way I'm risking it , but Its a cash game so I'm looking to make money making decisions.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:31 am GMT by Soup_dog
| kainARGH wrote: | apologies wench , that was aimed more so at dave and sean , but I was wrong , you did give a reason
-edit
IE my posistion , re-looking over my first post I may not have been clear. Out of 9 players , I was 7th to act - 1st and 2nd being SB and BB. Just cut-off and button behind me + blinds.
Are you saying I was out of posistion due to the re-raise? |
Exactly. You were sandwhiched between a raiser and a reraiser which is a really ugly position to be in.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:47 am GMT by kainARGH
| Soup_dog wrote: | | kainARGH wrote: | apologies wench , that was aimed more so at dave and sean , but I was wrong , you did give a reason
-edit
IE my posistion , re-looking over my first post I may not have been clear. Out of 9 players , I was 7th to act - 1st and 2nd being SB and BB. Just cut-off and button behind me + blinds.
Are you saying I was out of posistion due to the re-raise? |
Exactly. You were sandwhiched between a raiser and a reraiser which is a really ugly position to be in. |
True , but I called with no intention of folding to a re-raise , and only planned on folding the flop if it came down absolutly horrible.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:14 pm GMT by BeerWench13
| kainARGH wrote: | | True , but I called with no intention of folding to a re-raise |
If you're going all the way with this hand, then I think it would have been more beneficial for you to raise with it instead of calling.
| kainARGH wrote: | | and only planned on folding the flop if it came down absolutly horrible. |
Q: What would you have done had the flop come K T x?
A: Gone broke.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:27 pm GMT by kainARGH
| BeerWench13 wrote: | | kainARGH wrote: | | True , but I called with no intention of folding to a re-raise |
If you're going all the way with this hand, then I think it would have been more beneficial for you to raise with it instead of calling.
| kainARGH wrote: | | and only planned on folding the flop if it came down absolutly horrible. |
Q: What would you have done had the flop come K T x?
A: Gone broke. |
Yea in hindsight , the call preflop VS just pushing there and then was a mistake. Though I feel even with me pushing preflop , due to the nature of the table , the same thing was going to happen ( anyone behind me wanting to see a flop was calling anything , those in the pot allready wern't folding ).
Now with your example of K T x , am I going broke to K10 or are you saying im going broke to 1010 , because im not allowing KK to be considered as a possiblity , via my reads.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:47 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Dude,
I honestly think your missing the whole point to what most people are saying. Given the pre-flop raise you could tell someone had some strength in their hand. No matter what your read was of the other players, this one factor screams hand strength above any. I can't say I disagree with the call with AK but remember AK is strong only in a short hand situation. The more players you add into the pot the less strength AK has(without improving after the flop). Seeing how there was a raise followed by a re-raise I think it would be safe to assume AK was beat before it got started.
The real point is after the flop. You can hardly think AK is strongest hand out there unless it was AK . In this case it wasn't. The only players that would most likely call any kind of bet here are players with a PP or someone with the A unless it was laid down pre-flop, but one never knows...  .
What happened was you got enamered by Big Slick like so many other people before you have. Big Slick is a tricky hand to play. Play it with caution but give it respect and it shall win many pots for you. Put all your money into it pre-flop though and you might be putting too much hope AK.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:57 pm GMT by BeerWench13
| kainARGH wrote: | | Now with your example of K T x , am I going broke to K10 or are you saying im going broke to 1010 , because im not allowing KK to be considered as a possiblity , via my reads. |
There are a myriad of hands that could beat you with this flop. TT, KT, Kx, xx(hit their set), etc. I don't have a problem with playing AK aggressively, nor with trusting your reads. However, given the information that you gave in your post, I'm folding this hand preflop. I don't want to invest that much of my stack in a multi-way pot with AKo. JMO.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:02 pm GMT by Johny
You had 28$ to start the hand, push instead of flat-calling. I'm still putting the rest in after utg re-raises.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:02 pm GMT by kainARGH
Oh I see , I wasn't thinking about your x properly.
thanks for the thoughts wench 
| Johny4444 wrote: | | You had 28$ to start the hand, push instead of flat-calling. I'm still putting the rest in after utg re-raises. |
Yay , someone who agrees. Now if I can just confirm or deny I was being laid pot odds to make this a winning call or not , thats really the only thing left to answer here , other then more opinions , though those are always welcomed.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:12 pm GMT by Johny
I'm having a hard time figuring out how much was in the pot after you were faced with the utg's all-in. Now I think there was close to $80 in the pot and you had $16 left. You're getting over 4-1 on your money and everyone in the hand is shortstacked, put the rest in.
Now if the same situation came up but you had a deeper stack, 50bb or more, than folding is probably better.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:38 pm GMT by kainARGH
| Johny4444 wrote: | I'm having a hard time figuring out how much was in the pot after you were faced with the utg's all-in. Now I think there was close to $80 in the pot and you had $16 left. You're getting over 4-1 on your money and everyone in the hand is shortstacked, put the rest in.
Now if the same situation came up but you had a deeper stack, 50bb or more, than folding is probably better. |
If I'm recalling correctly;
preflop by just calling: 30$ to me for 12 $ with those left to act behind me and the original raiser to call all in or re-raise. After 1 caller behind me , It was aprox 42$ in the pot , to whch the original raiser could eitehr put 6$ more in , makeing it aprox 4 to 1 , or raise. He raised , and with everyone else calling , I was getting aproximatly 3.5 to 1 on my money. after i just called , it was 68$ in front of me ( including my first 12$ ) for a call of about 15$ ( me all in ).
So basically 4 to 1 on my money before the re-raise , 3.5 to 1 after the raise. VS 4 others in the pot 1 short stack all in.
Before I decided weather or not I was going to call or fold , there was 3 to 1 money in front of me when I looked down at AKo in late posistion.
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