Om/8 preflop and those that bet there |
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Posted Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:32 pm GMT by Xamzax
What factors does everyone use to determine whether or not to raise preflop with a hand? Some possible examples...
1. Position
2. Strong low
3. Strong high with low possible
4. Other players' styles
5. Your table image
6. Fogettaboutit, I'm raising everything! (I wish everyone did this  )
Would you be more likely to raise in early position with A234 or with A2JT?
What about A2A4 double suited?
And if anyone can back up their responses with statistics or theory, it'd be appreciated.
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Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:25 am GMT by kainARGH
Really don't raise large , IE pot sized , unless I have a MONSTER high , and if the low doesn't flop I plan to pot bet to the river.
Other then that , If i have an interesting low , IE A35Q , I may raise to build the pot , knowing people will donk off money when i make a strong low.
.02 , I don't play often , but feel I have a strong concept of the game.
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:54 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Well, I'm going to say a few words about LIMIT Omaha-8, which in my opinion is the only Omaha-8 format worth playing; Pot-Limit is simply too volatile and too biased in favor of high-only hands.
The biggest factor in determing when to raise on your table is what the other players are like. If they will fold to raises, you can raise to thin the field with good high-only hands to maximize your chances of scooping if it comes all high. If players are loose in general (as they should be if you exercise proper table selection), you may not want to raise with hands that contain AA or A2 from EP, because you will just shut dead money out of the pot. Conversely, in LP, if a lot of people have limped in, I like raising with AA or A2 hands to build a pot, particularly if I have nut flush possibilities.
So the short-answer is try to get as much money in the pot as possible--whether that means calling or raising depends on how willing the folks at your table are to cold call with bad hands.
In EP, you might surprised, because with all the hands you listed, in a tight game, I would probably just limp. I would raise however with a hand like KKQJ or KQJT to thin out other high hands and leave me playing with people for 1/2 or 1/4 the pot at most.
Other than that, post-flop play can be summarized simply: DRAW TO THE NUTS!
Posted Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:14 pm GMT by Xamzax
Perhaps I need to further describe my question.
First, I'm a low limit om/8 player with a pretty good track record. I'm thinking about all the factors people consider before they actually do put a raise in pre flop with a hand.
For me, it's a mixture of a few things. First, I look at my position and what I want to accomplish with the hand. If it's a High only hand like AAJT ds and I'm in early position, I'll raise right out to try to limit the field. However, in a later position, I will try to see the flop on the cheap instead. Conversely, if I'm in middle position with A2A4 double suited, I would raise to partially limit the field to increase my scooping chances. My raise would be an attempt to get naked 2-3 and 2-4 hands away from the flop.
Secondly, I have to evaluate my table. If the table is very loose and weak, I'll never raise before the flop since I'll be playing more A2 hands over high onlys. and that is free money. Conversely, if the table is loose and already prone to preflop raising, I'll merely go with their flow and shoot for good hands, waiting to spring my trap around the turn.
According to poker theory, if I raise with an A2 ( a hand more likely to score a low over an A3) and any other low drawing hands call me, they are making a mistake before the flop. However, looking deep into it I see that the mistake you are costing them on the flop is usually miniscule and less likely to effect their bankroll. Basically, the ability to get quickly away from the hand on the flop negates severe loss from the preflop call. <-- egads, even I can't understand me.
Okay, so there's the answer according to me.. I'd really like to hear anybody else's opinion on the subject.
Posted Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:52 am GMT by BeerWench13
I know this is probably wrong, wrong, wrong, but I suck at O8. Maybe this is why. I generally don't raise preflop in PLO8 cash games unless I have one of the following hands:
AAK2 double suited
AKK2 preferably at least two of which are suited
A2 w/ suited connectors (i.e.JT, 89, etc.)
Even with these hands (except the first), I don't raise unless I'm in position and think I can get a few opponents to fold. Like Diamond said, PLO8 is a crap shoot. It's such a drawing game and it's rare that you can get any of your opponents to fold. Also, as he stated, it's very biased toward high-only hands.
Now, I play with a bunch of gamblers who will play just about any hand all the way, so this may jade my thinking a bit. These guys should be paying me off, but thus far that hasn't been the case. Maybe it's because I suck. 
Tournaments require a different strategy all together. I don't know what it is yet since I've only played one that wasn't FL, but I know that you have to be more aggressive to build your stack.
Posted Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:25 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Hopefully this advice will help both of you a little bit.
In all forms of Omaha 8-or-Better, when your opponents play mostly loose (and especially if they play loose and passively), you probably don't want to push your edge too early in the hand. Even with the big guns, like AA23 double-suited or AAKK double-suited, you may want to just wait for the flop--the reason being, your equity AFTER the flop will reflect your actual hand value better than your equity pre-flop, which is rarely much better than about 25% or so in a large multi-way pot.
In Pot-Limit O8, the check-raise is a very strong move when you have players to act in between bettors, because they usually face a much tougher decision than if they had been forced to call only one small bet.
To Xamzax, I think you have the right idea, but with nut-low draws (particularly with a back-up), I'm not sure I want to shut anyone out of the pot, because bad players can get trapped in the middle with second-nut low very frequently. You are correct that raising with A2 will often cause many people to make a mistake, BUT, I usually only raise with A2 in limit games when a lot of people have entered the pot before me. That way, they're facing huge odds and are forced to call only one small bet, and even if they are getting proper odds, your equity is significantly better than theirs, especially if your Ace is suited.
Wenchie, I think your hand-selection is correct and your track record is simply poor--just keep at it, because in loose O8 games, hand selection alone is usually what makes the money (it is essentially a mechanical game when your table is "good"). One thing I would advise though is staying away from "middling" cards like 76 or 87 because when the board comes only high, your straight is usually not the nuts, and when the board comes low, your straight draw may only be worth half the pot (note that if you have the nut low draw as well this doesn't apply). If you continue play PLO8, I would try to limp in to a lot of pots cheaply with quality starting hands that have a good shot at becoming the nuts--with a big draw, I would usually bet to build a pot on the flop, and especially if you flop something like the nut low with the nut flush- or straight-draw, it's important you build a pot on the flop and get some big bets in there on the turn and river.
Posted Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:04 am GMT by BeerWench13
Thank you, Diamond. I need all the help I can get in this game. I have the basic idea, but I cannot seem to win. Here is a hand from last night, please give me your opinion.
Hero (MP) ~$80 A  2  3 5
Not the best hand, but not bad either. I limp. Everyone but one player limps.
Pot $16
Flop
2 4 Q 
UTG bets pot. Next player raises to $45. I push. It folds to original bettor and both players call.
Turn
T 
River
T
I lose. I figured I at least had a chance to split the pot with a low or possibly scoop with the wheel/nut flush/straight flush draw.
Did I play this poorly? Any suggestions? I need help badly.
Posted Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:05 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Your play was great... again you just got unlucky. A235 double-suited is a premium hand, and that flop begged for a push--nut flush draw, and no possible counterfeit low. I'd push every day of the week.
Posted Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:19 pm GMT by BeerWench13
One more question for you. I'm still working on my starting hands here.
I had 2 3 6 7 on the button with everyone limping. I limped also. Dumbass in BB pots and everyone behind calls. At this point I figure I've got decent odds. The raiser is an idiot. He pot-bet from the BB the last round with AAA8 in the hole, so I can't respect any raise from him.
The flop came A Q 8 . UTG bets pot, guy behind repots and player behind him repots. It would cost me my whole stack to call here. I folded even with the nut low figuring at best I'm splitting, quartering, or, worst case scenario, getting nothing at all.
My first question is, should I have folded preflop? Did I have the correct odds, especially considering the past poor play of the raiser?
Should I have risked my stack on the flop?
Posted Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:54 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
1. Yes, it was fine to see that flop in a multiway pot. If an Ace comes, you'll probably have the nut low draw. If not, it's easy to toss. Note there is nothing wrong with folding pre-flop either, since I prefer to only play big pots with an Ace. Also note, however, that although you don't have to worry about the raiser, you will have to worry about the other callers. You do NOT want to get trapped on the flop with second-best low if an Ace doesn't fall. The good thing is we have position after the flop. The bad part is if we only get a single draw, we may have to fold because a pot-sized bet will now be huge. In Limit, I'd call with your hand multi-way more often than not, but I think cases can be made for folding or calling in Pot Limit.
2. Folding on the flop is correct because your flush draw is weak, and you never want to risk your whole stack for what will probably be half the pot. Also, unlike in the first hand you posted, you have no re-draw for low, so if a 2 or 3 comes, you're sunk.
Now you can see why high hands have such a big advantage in Pot Limit...
Posted Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:02 pm GMT by BeerWench13
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | Now you can see why high hands have such a big advantage in Pot Limit... |
Yes I can. I'm seeing it more and more as I play with these guys. Thanks for the advice. I'm really struggling with this game. I can't seem to hit no matter how many outs I have and when I do hit, it just doesn't hold unless I can bet them all out of the pot. That's very difficult to do with this group of guys.
Posted Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:22 pm GMT by snoogins47
Just to throw two more cents into the pot... in response to the original post, #1 and, sorta, #4, get the lion's share of emphasis from me as to what hands I raise in PLO. Some of 6, too. To try to sum it up as succinctly as possible: in PLO8, what I do after the flop is mostly pushing edges. What I'm doing preflop, is "maneuvering"
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