Does anyone like this move? |
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Posted Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:51 am GMT by Geno
I watched this hand play out in a $20 freezeout MTT and still can't quite decide if I like it or hate it. I spoke to NickHow on MSN and we both agreed I should post it here as people (read: Supa) will have plenty to say about it no doubt 
PokerStars Game #4614907637: Tournament #23018291, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2006/04/13 - 18:31:50 (ET)
Table '23018291 12' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Squrell (1435 in chips)
Seat 2: GenoTHP (2860 in chips)
Seat 3: leshark81 (2090 in chips)
Seat 4: grizz0129 (2705 in chips)
Seat 5: caveman14 (2550 in chips)
Seat 6: ZeeDustin (1060 in chips)
Seat 7: BorisKarloff (2115 in chips)
Seat 8: Asiometro (2360 in chips)
Seat 9: Iam1022 (2650 in chips)
GenoTHP: posts small blind 15
leshark81: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to GenoTHP  
grizz0129: folds
caveman14: raises 60 to 90
ZeeDustin: calls 90
BorisKarloff: folds
Asiometro: calls 90
Iam1022: calls 90
Squrell: calls 90
GenoTHP: folds
leshark81: raises 2000 to 2090 and is all-in
caveman14: raises 460 to 2550 and is all-in
ZeeDustin: folds
Asiometro: calls 2270 and is all-in
Iam1022: folds
Squrell: folds
*** FLOP ***   
*** TURN *** 
*** RIVER *** 
*** SHOW DOWN ***
caveman14: shows   (a pair of Queens)
Asiometro: shows   (a straight, Three to Seven)
Asiometro collected 540 from side pot
leshark81: shows   (a straight, Ace to Five)
Asiometro collected 6555 from main pot
Squrell said, "lol"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7095 Main pot 6555. Side pot 540. | Rake 0
Board
Seat 1: Squrell (button) folded before Flop
Seat 2: GenoTHP (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: leshark81 (big blind) showed and lost with a straight, Ace to Five
Seat 4: grizz0129 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: caveman14 showed and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 6: ZeeDustin folded before Flop
Seat 7: BorisKarloff folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Asiometro showed and won (7095) with a straight, Three to Seven
Seat 9: Iam1022 folded before Flop
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Posted Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:40 pm GMT by Skribbles
Don't like it.
1) Player has 2200 or so chips with blinds at 15/30. No need to go into a hand as a huge dog. If this player had been chipleader with more than double the other two, I wouldn't mind it.
2) Had this been a rebuy, love it.
3) This play was a gamble, nothing more.
Posted Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:12 pm GMT by Dave B
I think that there are a ton of players that need to gamble to win. If you are, this is a nice spot to do it in. Unless someone has 66 or 55, your odds arent bad.
Or, if you feel like you can dominate w/ a big stack and pound away at the table, this might not be a bad spot either.
I think that times when this is a "reasonable" play is very early on. You know you are only 25-35%, but you are prepared to triple up or be done.
Posted Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:41 pm GMT by Geno
Indeed, I am somewhere between both replies at the moment. I am more and more realising that there are times when a well timed gamble is a very important move and really, if you are gonna bust out a tourney on a gamble, you may as well do it early than after investing a lot of time. Personally, I can't bring myself to make a move like this as it really is a little too close to pure gambling but I also rather like it 
Posted Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:27 pm GMT by UrAteUp
This is pure gambling. Personally I don't like it but I am not that much into gambling like that. I would rather throw all in with AA, AK or KK then suited connectors. The odds on cards falling just right to give you the straight are just too dang much of a long shot for me to put my entire chip stack on the line.
Posted Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:32 pm GMT by supafrey
Should I take offence to this?
I dunno. I've done it before, I guess, but mostly just for fun. There's much better times to put your money in if you think you're a better player than your opponents. Thankfully I'm always better than my opponents, so I'd prolly fold this 9 times out of 10.
Posted Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:32 pm GMT by Icec0o1
| Geno wrote: | | if you are gonna bust out a tourney on a gamble, you may as well do it early than after investing a lot of time. |
Horrible strategy/thought. You're paying a tournament entry no matter how many hands you see. The more hands you see, the better because you can catch more big pocket pairds/nice starting hands. I don't see a point to gambling unless you have to because the blinds are getting insane compared to your stack.
Why gamble with 56 suited when you can catch pocket aces next hand and tripple up? And a few hands later you catch kings and double up to become chip leader...it can't happen unless you're there to see those hands. Gambling's just not worth it. You can make good plays/bluff but that's different. I even hate 50/50's and might fold pocket 10's or Jacks early on in a tourney to an all in if I put villan on AK or AQ because I feel that I have a good chance of getting better odds/opportunities later on.
Posted Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:49 pm GMT by Geno
| Icec0o1 wrote: | | Geno wrote: | | if you are gonna bust out a tourney on a gamble, you may as well do it early than after investing a lot of time. |
Horrible strategy/thought. You're paying a tournament entry no matter how many hands you see. The more hands you see, the better because you can catch more big pocket pairds/nice starting hands. |
It's not horrible at all - if you sit on your hands in every tourney and wait for just good cards (as novice players do), you will never be a consistently good MTT player.
| Icec0o1 wrote: | | I don't see a point to gambling unless you have to because the blinds are getting insane compared to your stack. |
Well, if the blinds are insanely big compared to your stack, you're not playing the MTT well are you?
| Icec0o1 wrote: | | Why gamble with 56 suited when you can catch pocket aces next hand and tripple up? And a few hands later you catch kings and double up to become chip leader...it can't happen unless you're there to see those hands. Gambling's just not worth it. |
You may not catch AA or KK before the blinds become an issue so why not play the odds a little. There is a lot to be said for mixing your game up too - if you nut peddle in an MTT, apart from the fact that you'll not get a big hand to pay off as often, you will just blind off......again.
| Icec0o1 wrote: | | You can make good plays/bluff but that's different. I even hate 50/50's and might fold pocket 10's or Jacks early on in a tourney to an all in if I put villan on AK or AQ because I feel that I have a good chance of getting better odds/opportunities later on. |
I agree that conservative play at low blind levels is smart play but if your style is too rigid, it'll be the same result time and again and it won't be top 3 stuff.
Posted Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:09 pm GMT by kainARGH
I don't have my odds calculator handy , at work. But could someone explain the gamble here? How its potentiolly in your favor , this exact scenario of suited conectors VS overpair VS high cards , at what appears to be 2.5 to 1 payoff.
Posted Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:25 pm GMT by Geno
| supafrey wrote: | Should I take offence to this?
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Not at all! We both just know if anyone is gonna deconstruct something that might appear shitty on the surface and justify it as good, it's probably gonna be you or maybe Snoogins
Posted Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:32 pm GMT by Johny
There's no way that calling there is any good. He had 2300 in chips with the blinds at 15/30! Plus the fact he's up against two opponents and he's more than likely dominated by at least one of them. The fact of the matter is he has more than enough playing room left before having to gamble. I don''t like calling all-in with marginal hands as opposed to pushing with them.
Posted Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:28 pm GMT by Icec0o1
| Geno wrote: | | Icec0o1 wrote: | | Geno wrote: | | if you are gonna bust out a tourney on a gamble, you may as well do it early than after investing a lot of time. |
Horrible strategy/thought. You're paying a tournament entry no matter how many hands you see. The more hands you see, the better because you can catch more big pocket pairds/nice starting hands. |
It's not horrible at all - if you sit on your hands in every tourney and wait for just good cards (as novice players do), you will never be a consistently good MTT player.
| Icec0o1 wrote: | | I don't see a point to gambling unless you have to because the blinds are getting insane compared to your stack. |
Well, if the blinds are insanely big compared to your stack, you're not playing the MTT well are you?
| Icec0o1 wrote: | | Why gamble with 56 suited when you can catch pocket aces next hand and tripple up? And a few hands later you catch kings and double up to become chip leader...it can't happen unless you're there to see those hands. Gambling's just not worth it. |
You may not catch AA or KK before the blinds become an issue so why not play the odds a little. There is a lot to be said for mixing your game up too - if you nut peddle in an MTT, apart from the fact that you'll not get a big hand to pay off as often, you will just blind off......again.
| Icec0o1 wrote: | | You can make good plays/bluff but that's different. I even hate 50/50's and might fold pocket 10's or Jacks early on in a tourney to an all in if I put villan on AK or AQ because I feel that I have a good chance of getting better odds/opportunities later on. |
I agree that conservative play at low blind levels is smart play but if your style is too rigid, it'll be the same result time and again and it won't be top 3 stuff. |
You misunderstood my post...I never said that conservative play is ever right. I said that gambling is pointless because it yields no profit in the long term.
I'm all for calling a 4x bb with suited connectors and making him pay you off when you hit or bluffing him out when you don't. Be loose, be agressive, be unpredictable, I never said anything against those things. I just don't think that giving up and taking a 50/50 or a 33% chance of trippling up is ever right.
Posted Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:34 pm GMT by Icec0o1
I got an example. A long time ago partypoker had a promotion for a porche 911. I was watching the final table and since only 1st place got anything, it was a gambling frienzy. I saw at least 20 times heads up all in with small pocket pair vs two face cards.
Now that case is extreme, but even then I think it's stupid to gamble. You're pretty much relying on winning that car on 4-5 coin tosses and hoping they all land on heads. But what do you do when people simply go all in with any strong ace or any pocket pair? I kind of understand it, but I would still try to avoid the gambling and use my skills to win that car...
I just hate that call with the 56 suited. 2/3 of the time you're out of the tournament...if you had 10 high pocket pairs coming or a number of chances to bluff people off large pots, well you missed them. You're simply giving up... And the 1/3 of the times when you tripple up, you're guaranteed nothing.
Posted Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:10 am GMT by Dave B
Ice-what if you play best with chips and you see this as a good opportunity to get some?
Think like Gus Hanson for a minute. He makes decisions based on game theory and not purely math.
For example: OK, I have 10 7 suited and I need to call an all in. But if I win, I will have 70% of the chips in play. So I have a 30-40% chance to give myself a 80-90% chance to win the entire tourament. 1st is 8 times more then 5th, so I think I will call.
There is more to poker than waiting for the best hand.
I dont know if I would make this play. But I would be suprised to hear that guys like this cash in more in multis than I do.
Posted Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:41 pm GMT by snoogins47
| Icec0o1 wrote: | I got an example. A long time ago partypoker had a promotion for a porche 911. I was watching the final table and since only 1st place got anything, it was a gambling frienzy. I saw at least 20 times heads up all in with small pocket pair vs two face cards.
Now that case is extreme, but even then I think it's stupid to gamble. You're pretty much relying on winning that car on 4-5 coin tosses and hoping they all land on heads. But what do you do when people simply go all in with any strong ace or any pocket pair? I kind of understand it, but I would still try to avoid the gambling and use my skills to win that car... |
And these "skills," they entail folding a lot, and a)hoping you find AA or KK once or twice, or b)waiting until you're heads up as a 9:1 chip underdog, and using your poker mojo to double up twice, to get back into fighting shape?
Posted Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:05 pm GMT by howzit
F-
Posted Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:21 am GMT by kingetje
idiotic call
Posted Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:17 pm GMT by AHBrownell
Okay so I don't like this play. The main reason - you cannot get away from the hand if you are all-in.
Early in MTTs I have started playing like a maniac. I raise nearly every unopened pot in mid/late position or the blinds. Occassionally this works really well. I had a hand recently where I raised on the button with 42os. Raised the flop when a 4 hit. Bluffed again on the turn. And hit another 4 on the river for trips. I nearly took someone's whole stack with one of the worst hands in holdem.
This style play early on works because the blinds are not huge. If you do end up blowing a 4th of your stack that is not a huge deal. This is because if you double up with a 3/4 stack and a full stack you will have close to the same sized stack.
Its also cool because if you play a junk hand and get lucky (or don't) or are playing a lot of hands (and people are noticing) you can get ppl to act stupid when you are holding the nuts.
I had a situation like this recently where I had raised 4 pots in a row - winning 2/4 of the pots. In the fifth hand I pick up AA. I raise again and another guy just pushes all in - doesn't get better than that
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