Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:52 am GMT by Dave B
Why are people so quick to call off their stacks w/ KQ in SNGs or multis?
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:56 am GMT by supafrey
Because alot of the time people push with underpairs?
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:02 am GMT by UrAteUp
Stupidity and the hopes of catching cards to go with it would be my guess... 
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:06 am GMT by supafrey
KQo is probably one of the most undervalued hands ever =P
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:33 am GMT by Johny
It depends on the size of their stacks.
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:41 am GMT by zinn0
| Johny4444 wrote: | | It depends on the size of their stacks. |
Very true. I'll call all-in against SS w/KQ if I am in the top 3 in chips and it doesn't take too much of my stack to make the call.
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:46 am GMT by UrAteUp
| zinn0 wrote: | | Johny4444 wrote: | | It depends on the size of their stacks. |
Very true. I'll call all-in against SS w/KQ if I am in the top 3 in chips and it doesn't take too much of my stack to make the call. |
Spoken like the true luckbox he is...   .
KQ does have some value and might be under rated, but there is no way I am pushing all-in pre-flop with it. Give me a made hand like AA, KK-99 or even Big Slick (AK for noobs), but never with KQ in an SNG even if I am short stack.
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:49 am GMT by zinn0
Then you are probably losing money while you wait for big hands.
And also, the thread is about CALLING all-in w/KQ. Not pushing with it.
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:02 am GMT by UrAteUp
| zinn0 wrote: | Then you are probably losing money while you wait for big hands.
And also, the thread is about CALLING all-in w/KQ. Not pushing with it. |
Dang Grouchy...you wake up on the wrong side of bed or what?... .
No way I am calling an all-in with KQ either then. True I might loose money but I want to remain in the tournament to finish in first not go out on the bubble or before.
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:06 am GMT by zinn0
That is exactly why you might want to make that call sometimes when you at the top of the leaderboard.
And no, I'm not grouchy. I've been up for a while, and actually called an all-in with KQ earlier. So...take that.
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:07 am GMT by supafrey
You're not going to get into first if you don't know how to push with decent cards.
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:58 pm GMT by BeerWench13
| zinn0 wrote: | | actually called an all-in with KQ earlier. So...take that. |
Did ya win?
I wouldn't think twice about pushing with no action ahead of me if I were short stack. Calling depends on how many more chips I have than they do.
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:14 pm GMT by zinn0
I did win. ACtually, calling that all-in is what really gave me the muscle to push the other guys around.
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:39 pm GMT by Dave B
If you are RISKING your tournament by calling an all in by someone that has you covered with KQ and are not a short stacked then you are AN IDIOT.
A FAT GIANT IDIOT.
You are better off calling w/ 65.
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:12 pm GMT by Johny
| Johny4444 wrote: | | It depends on the size of their stacks. |
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:54 pm GMT by Moon_Child
| Dave B wrote: | If you are RISKING your tournament by calling an all in by someone that has you covered with KQ and are not a short stacked then you are AN IDIOT.
A FAT GIANT IDIOT.
You are better off calling w/ 65. |
agreed. i would like to be the agressor and raise with kq, i don't call with them... simply you could be facing, AA KK AK AQ dominated and even if ur facing any other pckts you are losing preflop.
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:06 pm GMT by zinn0
| Moon_Child wrote: | | agreed. i would like to be the agressor and raise with kq, i don't call with them... simply you could be facing, AA KK AK AQ dominated and even if ur facing any other pckts you are losing preflop. |
What if you have KQ on the button with a 35bb stack, and a SS pushes from UTG for 4bb's? Would you not call there?
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:07 pm GMT by suitedaces84
UrAteUp, you should really stop giving poker advice.
Posted Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:41 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| zinn0 wrote: | | Moon_Child wrote: | | agreed. i would like to be the agressor and raise with kq, i don't call with them... simply you could be facing, AA KK AK AQ dominated and even if ur facing any other pckts you are losing preflop. |
What if you have KQ on the button with a 35bb stack, and a SS pushes from UTG for 4bb's? Would you not call there? |
I'd rather be calling the all-in out of the blind when the SS is in late position... this expands his hand range to the point where KQ might even be a favorite over him.
But in general, I hate calling an all-in with King high... I usually only do it if I suspect the pusher is desperate or I have a very big stack.
Posted Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:18 am GMT by JohnnyCache
But guys
texas calculatem says it's a good hand
Posted Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:55 am GMT by UrAteUp
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | UrAteUp, you should really stop giving poker advice. |
Sure...no problem.
Edit: You know I was going to leave this comment alone but for some reason it just grabbed me the wrong way. Suited I never had a problem with your or your advice in the past but for some reason I do here. So let me just say....
Bite Me bytch... ...enough said.
Posted Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:34 am GMT by supafrey
It's a much better hand than most of you are giving it credit for.
Posted Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:55 am GMT by BeerWench13
| supafrey wrote: | | It's a much better hand than most of you are giving it credit for. |
I agree with this statement (even though you did end it with a preposition). However, calling off all of your chips in a tourney, unless you have an absolute read, is not the best play. I believe that is the point that Dave is trying to make.
Posted Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:56 am GMT by Dave B
It is a fine hand, but if I am in a 10 person SNG or mid way through a multi and someone moves all in for more than I have I dont call. You cant possibly be a favorite to anything unless the guy raising is a complete donk.
Posted Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:57 am GMT by UrAteUp
| supafrey wrote: | | It's a much better hand than most of you are giving it credit for. |
I can understand that. Let me just say that given a general situation, like Dave did in his original post, it is hard to say how it is best played or even if it should be played. As I said, if there is a big danger that I am going to be out of the tournament by playing this hand, then I won't play it. Just my personal opinion here.
Posted Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:06 am GMT by supafrey
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what you guys are saying.
Calling any all in (when you're stuck with less chips) is probably not a good idea unless you have an ace or a pair. If I was completely shortstacked this may be a different story. I'd hope for a low pp or Ax and push away.
Posted Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:48 pm GMT by Moon_Child
| zinn0 wrote: | | Moon_Child wrote: | | agreed. i would like to be the agressor and raise with kq, i don't call with them... simply you could be facing, AA KK AK AQ dominated and even if ur facing any other pckts you are losing preflop. |
What if you have KQ on the button with a 35bb stack, and a SS pushes from UTG for 4bb's? Would you not call there? |
easy call there... you have a chance to take someone out and it wouldn't cost you much to do it... and someone might call in the sb or bb.
but i agree with supra also
Posted Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:40 pm GMT by suitedaces84
UrAteUp,
I don't have a problem with you either. I do have a problem with the fact that you have clearly put little or no thought into poker yet you continue to give advice like you have. None of this really effects me, I just find it mildly irritating.
I realize there is probably a ton of poker stuff I don't get. But when I find something I don't know I make a point of learning it. This is why I continue to get better. You don't do this. Everytime someone tries to straighten you out you say something like "it's a matter of opinion/style". You don't get it; it's not. If you put any thought into poker you would have realized this by now.
This doesn't really effect me either way, I just find it mildly irritating to see your senseless posts about how AK is a drawing hand.
Posted Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:09 pm GMT by xhi
| Dave B wrote: |
You are better off calling w/ 65. |
Only if its 65 Sooted!!
Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:17 am GMT by JohnnyCache
Dear Forum
Yours Truly
A guy with no coffee.
Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:26 am GMT by UrAteUp
| suitedaces84 wrote: | UrAteUp,
I don't have a problem with you either. I do have a problem with the fact that you have clearly put little or no thought into poker yet you continue to give advice like you have. None of this really effects me, I just find it mildly irritating.
I realize there is probably a ton of poker stuff I don't get. But when I find something I don't know I make a point of learning it. This is why I continue to get better. You don't do this. Everytime someone tries to straighten you out you say something like "it's a matter of opinion/style". You don't get it; it's not. If you put any thought into poker you would have realized this by now.
This doesn't really effect me either way, I just find it mildly irritating to see your senseless posts about how AK is a drawing hand. |
Suited...let me first appologize to you and the forum for my bite me remark. I was in a bad mood yesterday but thats no excuse. It was a rather childish way to handle the situation.
The whole point of this post from Dave was this:
| Quote: | | It is a fine hand, but if I am in a 10 person SNG or mid way through a multi and someone moves all in for more than I have I dont call. You cant possibly be a favorite to anything unless the guy raising is a complete donk. |
I happen to agree with Dave here and made it clear early on. Yes KQ does some strength as I said in several responses to this post. I also understand AK is a big hand. I understand that it holds strength without a draw, but it is not the holy grail of hands and has to be played carefully just as ANY hand does in poker. If you would call an all-in bet with KQ in the situation Dave describes then perhaps I am missing something about poker but personally I just couldn't see doing it and risking my tournament life.
Now as for my poker playing. I too put countless hours into reading and studying poker. If I do not understand something I study it to find out more about it. I do this in more things in life then just poker. I continue to learn and will always strive for more knowledge in this game even after years of playing it. I may not know it all but I do now poker is a vaste situational game and no one answer can or will answer all situations on a paticular hand.
Posted Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:20 pm GMT by zeroswarm
Calling your whole stack with KQ isn't generally advisable but then I see people doing the same with a whole host of other, equally marginal hands..
Any pocket pair, any ace, sometimes even with hands like KJ or QJ or even Q 10.
I guess people just like to gamble regardless of their odds...
Posted Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:51 pm GMT by Ryan231
| zeroswarm wrote: | Calling your whole stack with KQ isn't generally advisable but then I see people doing the same with a whole host of other, equally marginal hands..
Any pocket pair, any ace, sometimes even with hands like KJ or QJ or even Q 10.
I guess people just like to gamble regardless of their odds... |
I really don't think they see it as a gamble, I think in most cases they think they have a strong hand with all-in value (which of course is not true). I see a lot of average poker players (ones that havent read any theory just played the game) over value such hands, I think that KQ and KJ are probably the most over valued along with hands like QJ and JT. I used to try and explain to people in live games why you shouldn't call with hands like KJ and KQ when someone moves all-in but then I started to realize they were paying me off huge.
Theres nothing better than moving in with AK and having someone call with KQ and then say something like "man thats so unlucky for me!", I really believe that these players just see 2 strong hole cards and don't consider what their opponent is holding. Personally with the type of players I play with (live only) I like to just limp in with these types of hands because I often get paid off when others are holding the same top pair with inferior kickers. I don't see whats really difficult with these types of hands, I usually play them just like I play mid PPs; early in the tournament limp in looking for a favorable flop and late game raise and fold to any resistance.
Personally I love KQ and KJ, I usually know when I'm ahead and they aren't hard to dump when you miss with them. I find them to be very situation hands, but it seems that most average players think they are premium holdings and will raise frequently with them and even call big raises preflop with them.
I also really think these hands are misplayed a lot so if anyone sees anything I'm doing wrong please feel free to correct me, I'm just posting how I play them.
Posted Wed May 03, 2006 12:57 am GMT by monkmask
| UrAteUp wrote: |
I too put countless hours into reading and studying poker. If I do not understand something I study it to find out more about it. |
Yet you can say things like
| UrAteUp wrote: |
KQ does have some value and might be under rated, but there is no way I am pushing all-in pre-flop with it. Give me a made hand like AA, KK-99 or even Big Slick (AK for noobs), but never with KQ in an SNG even if I am short stack. |
Which strongly indicates that you have never heard about the concept of 'M' for example. Or the relative hand values which can always change depending upon your position, progress of the torurney / SNG and of course the 'M'. Also you seem to have this strange perception that any non-paired two cards are not that strong as a preflop hand (reluctantly excluding AK ).
One widely agreed poker strategy is, sometimes, especially when you are a big short stack compared to the blinds and other players, and no one enter the pot before you, it is not only right to push with KQ, but it is almost wrong not to push.
Of course calling an all-in with KQ is a totally different matter, but if the aggressor is a short stack who obviously understands the above strategy, and your stack is much bigger than his, sometimes it is right to call with hands like KQ.
Posted Wed May 03, 2006 1:47 pm GMT by jonesyb
| Dave B wrote: | | Why are people so quick to call off their stacks w/ KQ in SNGs or multis? |
i dont know.
personally though there are various situations where i might call off chips with KQ:
if i am a large stack and someone with around 10% my stack pushes.. then i will call with it (harrington told me too).
or if there are good odds and position then i might call with it.
to summarise.. it depends. ha.
i am sure you know all this though, dave.
:D
Posted Wed May 03, 2006 10:09 pm GMT by Dave B
but my scenario and point was how many people call a raise more of more than they have (risk their tourney life) in healthy positions w/ just KQ.
That is stupid, there is no arguing about it.
Posted Thu May 04, 2006 9:42 am GMT by kingetje
heres anoher example of someone getting in way too deep with his KQ:
Sugar Shack 8161255-47703 Holdem No Limit $0.05/$0.10
May 4 14:13:36 : Hand Start.
May 4 14:13:36 : Seat 1 : AdilNotts has $19.18
May 4 14:13:36 : Seat 2 : setup has $9.15
May 4 14:13:36 : Seat 3 : LDOG1543 has $1.30
May 4 14:13:36 : Seat 4 : TheCheyenne has $9.23
May 4 14:13:36 : Seat 6 : kingetje has $10.47
May 4 14:13:36 : AdilNotts is the dealer.
May 4 14:13:36 : setup posted small blind.
May 4 14:13:37 : LDOG1543 posted big blind.
May 4 14:13:37 : Game 47703 started with 5 players.
May 4 14:13:37 : Dealing Hole Cards.
May 4 14:13:37 : Seat 6 : kingetje has Ah Kc
May 4 14:13:39 : TheCheyenne called $0.10
May 4 14:13:44 : kingetje called $0.10 and raised $0.40
May 4 14:13:44 : AdilNotts folded.
May 4 14:13:47 : setup called $0.45
May 4 14:13:49 : LDOG1543 called $0.40 and raised $0.80 and is All-in
May 4 14:13:57 : TheCheyenne called $1.20
May 4 14:14:01 : kingetje called $0.80 and raised $3
May 4 14:14:08 : setup folded.
May 4 14:14:08 : TheCheyenne called $3
May 4 14:14:09 : Dealing flop.
May 4 14:14:09 : Board cards   
May 4 14:14:11 : TheCheyenne checked.
May 4 14:14:16 : kingetje bet $6.17 and is All-in
May 4 14:14:18 : TheCheyenne called $4.93 and is All-in
May 4 14:14:19 : Showdown!
May 4 14:14:19 : Seat 6 : kingetje has Ah Kc
May 4 14:14:21 : Seat 3 : LDOG1543 has 7d 7s
May 4 14:14:21 : Seat 4 : TheCheyenne has Qs Kh
May 4 14:14:21 : Seat 6 : kingetje has Ah Kc
May 4 14:14:27 : Board cards  
May 4 14:14:27 : Seat 6 : kingetje has Ah Kc
May 4 14:14:27 : kingetje has Pair: Kings
May 4 14:14:27 : Seat 4 : TheCheyenne has Qs Kh
May 4 14:14:27 : TheCheyenne has Pair: Kings
May 4 14:14:27 : kingetje wins $15.06 with Pair: Kings
May 4 14:14:27 : Seat 6 : kingetje has Ah Kc
May 4 14:14:27 : kingetje has Pair: Kings
May 4 14:14:27 : Seat 3 : LDOG1543 has 7d 7s
May 4 14:14:27 : LDOG1543 has 3 of a Kind: 7s
May 4 14:14:27 : Seat 4 : TheCheyenne has Qs Kh
May 4 14:14:27 : TheCheyenne has Pair: Kings
May 4 14:14:27 : LDOG1543 wins $4.19 with 3 of a Kind: 7s
May 4 14:14:42 : Hand is over.
Posted Thu May 04, 2006 12:59 pm GMT by JRM4833
| UrAteUp wrote: | | zinn0 wrote: | | Johny4444 wrote: | | It depends on the size of their stacks. |
Very true. I'll call all-in against SS w/KQ if I am in the top 3 in chips and it doesn't take too much of my stack to make the call. |
Spoken like the true luckbox he is... .
KQ does have some value and might be under rated, but there is no way I am pushing all-in pre-flop with it. Give me a made hand like AA, KK-99 or even Big Slick (AK for noobs), but never with KQ in an SNG even if I am short stack. |
I agree with you here. Putting aside pure bluffs, your best case scenario is going up against A-small or a small pair. You're not a huge underdog here, but we're talking best case scenario being a 58-42 underdog. I don't know the odds against a low pair off the top of my head, but I think they're pretty similar.
I mean, if it's late and the table is small enough, I'll make a move with KQ, but I won't often call an all in with it unless I have good info to go on. At least this is my take on it.
Posted Fri May 05, 2006 5:17 am GMT by snoogins47
Now, I'm normally not one to defend Dave, or anybody else (because y'know, IM THE BEST ON THIS FORUM AND YOU ARE ALL MORONS) and... yadda yadda, I'm a cocky bastard.
But, I think generally if somebody like DaveB posts something like this, you can assume that a)he understands what circumstances may make the play in question 'reasonable' or 'unreasonable' and b)he's not referring to the people who make the play in 'reasonable' circumstances as the stupid morons. And we're probably better off if we assume this.
Posted Fri May 05, 2006 8:03 am GMT by UrAteUp
| snoogins47 wrote: | | I'm a cocky bastard. |
I thought you were going to post something shocking or that we didn't know?... 
Posted Fri May 05, 2006 8:23 am GMT by BeerWench13
| snoogins47 wrote: | | I think generally if somebody like DaveB posts something like this, you can assume that a)he understands what circumstances may make the play in question 'reasonable' or 'unreasonable' and b)he's not referring to the people who make the play in 'reasonable' circumstances as the stupid morons. And we're probably better off if we assume this. |
Quoted for truth.
Posted Fri May 05, 2006 8:26 am GMT by supafrey
Anytime I say anything that may be wrong, just assume it goes at a deeper level than any mere peon could hope to understand. Then bow your head and toil at my fields as I play on my laptop and sip my gin.
Posted Fri May 05, 2006 8:28 am GMT by BeerWench13
| supafrey wrote: | | Anytime I say anything that may be wrong |
Never happen.
Posted Fri May 05, 2006 8:31 am GMT by UrAteUp
| supafrey wrote: | | Anytime I say anything that may be wrong, just assume it goes at a deeper level than any mere peon could hope to understand. Then bow your head and toil at my fields as I play on my laptop and sip my gin. |
How about we just consider the conceded (spelling?) source and leave it at that dude?...
Posted Tue May 09, 2006 9:34 pm GMT by zinn0
http://www.pokerhand.org/?329817
*sigh
Posted Tue May 09, 2006 10:04 pm GMT by Hurricane Ham
| zinn0 wrote: | http://www.pokerhand.org/?329817
*sigh |
That's what you get playing those turbos.
Posted Tue May 09, 2006 10:26 pm GMT by zinn0
| Hurricane Ham wrote: | | That's what you get playing those turbos. |
Blasphemy.
|
|
