Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:02 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
When you river a great card but your opponent has like the most concealed cooler ever?
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to GOCUBSGO 
Dealt to Jackson35 
Dealt to melmet 
Dealt to Turn_Prophet   
Dealt to dayn_1 
Dealt to CDPatterson 
Dealt to quadandhamm0 
Dealt to erfigo 
dayn_1: brings-in low $2
CDPatterson: folds
quadandhamm0: folds
erfigo: folds
GOCUBSGO: folds
Jackson35: folds
melmet: calls $2
Turn_Prophet: raises $3 to $5
dayn_1: folds
melmet: calls $3
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to melmet 
Dealt to Turn_Prophet 
melmet: checks
Turn_Prophet: bets $5
melmet: calls $5
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to melmet 
Dealt to Turn_Prophet 
Turn_Prophet: bets $10
melmet: calls $10
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to melmet 
Dealt to Turn_Prophet 
Turn_Prophet: bets $10
melmet: calls $10
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to Turn_Prophet 
Turn_Prophet: bets $10
melmet: raises $10 to $20
Turn_Prophet: raises $10 to $30
melmet: raises $10 to $40
Betting is capped
Turn_Prophet: calls $10
*** SHOW DOWN ***
melmet: shows    (a full house, Fives full of Fours)
Turn_Prophet: mucks hand
If I hadn't hit that Queen I would have lost only one more bet, and I probably would have just check/called the river.
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Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:15 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Again....
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to GOCUBSGO 
Dealt to Jackson35
Dealt to melmet
Dealt to Turn_Prophet  
Dealt to dayn_1
Dealt to quadandhamm0 
Dealt to erfigo 
dayn_1: brings-in low $2
quadandhamm0: folds
erfigo: calls $2
Wakeupdog joins the table at seat #6
GOCUBSGO: calls $2
Jackson35: calls $2
melmet: calls $2
Turn_Prophet: calls $2
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to GOCUBSGO 
Dealt to Jackson35 
Dealt to melmet
Dealt to Turn_Prophet 
Dealt to dayn_1
Dealt to erfigo 
dayn_1: checks
erfigo: checks
GOCUBSGO: checks
Jackson35: checks
melmet: checks
Turn_Prophet: bets $5
dayn_1: folds
erfigo: calls $5
GOCUBSGO: calls $5
Jackson35: calls $5
melmet: calls $5
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to GOCUBSGO 
Dealt to Jackson35
Dealt to melmet 
Dealt to Turn_Prophet 
Dealt to erfigo
Jackson35: bets $10
melmet: calls $10
Turn_Prophet: calls $10
erfigo: folds
GOCUBSGO: calls $10
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to GOCUBSGO 
Dealt to Jackson35
Dealt to melmet
Dealt to Turn_Prophet 
Jackson35: checks
melmet: checks
Turn_Prophet: bets $10
GOCUBSGO: calls $10
Jackson35: folds
melmet: calls $10
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to Turn_Prophet 
GOCUBSGO: checks
melmet: checks
Turn_Prophet: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GOCUBSGO: shows (two pair, Kings and Threes)
melmet: mucks hand
Turn_Prophet: mucks hand
How he not protect that hand? Feels so silly to lose to someone who had a good hand but played it so retardedly...
EDIT: -51 BB in two days BAAAADDD... that is one of the worst runs of luck I've ever had in Limit.
Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:47 am GMT by kainARGH
first ones tough , I would have happily capped it looking at the villans showing cards.
Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:01 am GMT by Dat_Dude
First one I would have put him on the wheel on 6th street, so I for sure would be capping that action on the river with Broadway.
Second hand was played horribly by your opponent. Pocket Kings should be in there raising 3rd Street and betting 4th Street.
Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:55 pm GMT by flafishy
EDIT: -51 BB in two days BAAAADDD... that is one of the worst runs of luck I've ever had in Limit.
Keep on playing. That'll happen quite often. I've had worse two-day runs many times.
Not a hell of a lot pisses me off more than some idiot slowplaying/check-calling huge pockets in 7-card Stud and having them hold up by hitting a second pair on the river. They deserve to die for that.
I don't mind if they're betting them out and then nail the second pair on the river, as most of the time, they deserve to beat me when I'm on a donk chase.
Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:03 pm GMT by BeerWench13
| Dat_Dude wrote: | First one I would have put him on the wheel on 6th street, so I for sure would be capping that action on the river with Broadway.
Second hand was played horribly by your opponent. Pocket Kings should be in there raising 3rd Street and betting 4th Street. |
Get out of my brain, man! This is almost word-for-word what I was going to post.
Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:05 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
The second hand I'm not sure I played especially well. Calling on 3rd Street was pretty much automatic... I was last to act, getting huge odds, and only one overcard to my pair was out. If I had raised (which wouldn't have been a good play either), maybe the Kings would have re-raised and I could have got out, but as it stood, it looked like I was up against nothing. I still cannot believe he would not raise with buried Kings on 3rd street... he was extremely fortunate he didn't get killed later in the hand.
Betting 4th Street was my biggest mistake in the hand. Given my position, it was unlikely I would get anyone out, and a lot of overs came to the Jacks... if I had waited to bet until 5th street, I might have denied some drawing hands their odds, but betting here was definitely not a good move on my part, because all it did was inflate a pot in which I didn't have much equity.
Also, by betting 4th street, I made further mistakes by calling down on 5th street and beyond. I was reasonably sure the bettor hadn't made three 5's, but if I hadn't bet 4th street, I could have laid down a loser right here and only wasted $2.
At least I checked the river... but yeah, definitely not my finest moment.
Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:07 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
| BeerWench13 wrote: | | Dat_Dude wrote: | First one I would have put him on the wheel on 6th street, so I for sure would be capping that action on the river with Broadway.
Second hand was played horribly by your opponent. Pocket Kings should be in there raising 3rd Street and betting 4th Street. |
Get out of my brain, man! This is almost word-for-word what I was going to post. |
Oh, being in your head isn't all that bad, is it? Just don't tell hubby and for SURE don't start yelling out "Dat Dude" when you guys are making whoopie. 
Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:28 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Dat_Dude wrote: | | ...making whoopie. |
What are you, 60?
Are you auditioning for host of the next incarnation of "The Newlywed Game?"
Posted Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:31 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | Dat_Dude wrote: | | ...making whoopie. |
What are you, 60?
Are you auditioning for host of the next incarnation of "The Newlywed Game?" |
27, but thanks for asking. Maybe I will edit the post and change it to "bumping uglies".
Posted Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:06 pm GMT by flafishy
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | Betting 4th Street was my biggest mistake in the hand. Given my position, it was unlikely I would get anyone out, and a lot of overs came to the Jacks... if I had waited to bet until 5th street, I might have denied some drawing hands their odds, but betting here was definitely not a good move on my part, because all it did was inflate a pot in which I didn't have much equity. |
I really think your biggest mistake was not raising 3rd. Why call here? You might not thin the field with a 3rd-street raise since you're last to act, but you certainly would push out many if not all of them with the bet on 4th after having raised 3rd. That would put you in much better position and give you a clearer idea heading into the big-bet streets.
I'm a tight player, tighter than most at these limits. I'll fold a gazillion hands on third street that most people would play. But when I decide to play a hand, I'll be aggressive as hell on 3rd and 4th just to find out where I stand and to make the marginal hands pay to play.
I definitely would have played this hand, and I definitely would have raised 3rd and bet 4th. My guess is that in this hand, that would have gotten rid of erfigo and possibly jackson and/or melmet and may have forced GOCUBSGO out of the weeds. But no matter what, at least on fifth street I would have had a better read on what other hands might be out there.
Posted Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:22 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
The problem with raising third street is that I simply don't have a good enough hand to raise for value, and given the dead money in the pot, I don't think a raise here does anything but make further calls more correct (or "less incorrect" to use somewhat poor English) for the other players in the pot (Sklansky talks about a similar concept in his writings on Razz, and mentions it in both the 7-Stud and Hold'em books). Unless I hit a Jack or an 8 on 4th street, I'm not looking to play a big pot with this hand, but it looks like I did anyway. The other advantage of not raising on 3rd is it conceals my hand by making it look like a 3-straight or 3-flush, so if I catch an open pair of Jacks, people may not take me for trips immediately. Notice if my hand were instead KJJ or AJJ, I could justify raising for value, but not with JJ8.
Posted Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:38 pm GMT by flafishy
I have played stud with Erik Seidel over at FTP a few times, and he has said several times there that if any hand worth playing on third street is worth raising -- and, conversely, any hand not worth raising is not work playing.
I certainly think that applies here. If you don't think the hand is good enough to raise with in this situation, why play it? Fold it and wait for a better hand.
I think either way is fine. But by just calling, you've put yourself in a situation when you're chasing something that you don't have a clue what it might be that you're chasing.
Posted Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:18 pm GMT by snoogins47
I was trying to write a detailed post about a concept, but it was quickly turning into a sprawling, unfocused rant.
Fla: Not like I'm one to disagree with Erik Seidel on his observations on poker... but I think that the emphasis of his 'rule' is to further the "tight-aggressive" mentality, not necessarily to say that we must raise every hand we play past 3rd regardless of the situation.
Basically, I won't argue about whether raising is right here, because I haven't come to a concrete conclusion myself. But could you elaborate on why folding would be superior to calling? More specifically, what exactly do you mean by
| Quote: | | you've put yourself in a situation when you're chasing something that you don't have a clue what it might be that you're chasing. |
and how does this concept change when we call, instead of raise?
Posted Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:56 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I agree with Snoogins here... I know what Seidel is trying to say, but 7-Stud is too complicated a game for such a general statement. There are a lot of situations where limping in is warranted, and I think this is one of them... I don't thin I played it very well after 3rd street, but I think that was the correct decision.
Posted Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:42 pm GMT by flafishy
By calling third street here, you're essentially thinking that you don't know if this hand is any good but you want to try to improve. What could you hit on fourth street that would improve the hand enough to make you think it's good to go? Another 8? I don't think so. Js up might be good, might not be. So you're still in a chasing mode trying to find out, but now you're going to have a hard time throwing it away at any point and it's going to get very expensive playing it through seventh street without even knowing if it's any good.
Certainly, you'd think a third J would put you in front, but how far do you want to chase that two-outer?
By raising third street and following up with a bet on 4th, you're going to get rid of the riffraff and find out which of your opponents might have a particularly strong hand.
And now that you've gone on the offensive, you can choose to do what you want on fifth. You can bet on fifth to try to take down the pot. Or you can check it down to possibly get a free card or two or to see if anyone's strong enough to take over the betting -- in which case you could confidently throw it away.
If you do that, you've saved yourself possibly three big bets for the price of a small bet on third.
Posted Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:35 pm GMT by snoogins47
I do see what you're saying, but I think a few things are important to remember.
Firstly, there are plenty of times that our situation has 'improved,' while our hand strength has not. The beauty of stud.
| Quote: | | By raising third street and following up with a bet on 4th, you're going to get rid of the riffraff and find out which of your opponents might have a particularly strong hand. |
This is part of the problem. Raising on third then betting fourth does like, nothing to get rid of the riff raff... everybody, and their mothers, are already in the pot for one bet. They're gonna have tons of incentive to call the 3rd street raise, and that gives them even more incentive to call the 4th street bet. By flat-calling here, we keep the pot smaller, which gives our bets on 4th street much more leverage, and makes it much more likely that we can force at least some opponent to call two-cold on fourth as well... thin out the riff raff, as it were.
I think this gets us a lot more information too. How do we know where we stand more if we raise 3rd, everybody calls, we bet 4th, and everybody calls?
Posted Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:02 pm GMT by flafishy
Not sure where you're playing, Snoogins, but most of the tables I play at, not everybody and their mother calls a fourth-street bet with a brick after you've already shown aggression on both streets. Maybe they will at the micro-limits, but in my experience, people will start folding here once you move into $3/$6 and $5/$10 territory online.
Posted Wed May 03, 2006 5:32 pm GMT by snoogins47
| flafishy wrote: | | Not sure where you're playing, Snoogins, but most of the tables I play at, not everybody and their mother calls a fourth-street bet with a brick after you've already shown aggression on both streets. Maybe they will at the micro-limits, but in my experience, people will start folding here once you move into $3/$6 and $5/$10 territory online. |
Well, I wasn't necessarily saying that everybody has to call... but the idea is that by raising 3rd, and betting 4th, we're basically sowing the seeds for a very large, multiway pot... after the entire table has entered ahead of us, most of them are going to want to peel off the next card, and then everybody will be getting a billion to one on the 4th street bet. By refraining to raise now, I think we generally have a better chance at eliminating a lot of folks by fifth-street-ish.
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