AJs line. HOW WOULD JOO PLAY IT?! |
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Posted Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:13 am GMT by supafrey
I was playing a semi-loose, but generally standard table of 1/2nl live. I was my usual laggy self, and that's probably the image any decent person has noticed of me at this point.
AJs, 1 spot before the button.
One limper by the time it comes around to me, and I raise to my standard 5x preflop ($10 total). My stack covers all people left in the hand.
Button has a stack of $89. (A noticably bright and somewhat straight forward but solid player - think "average" when coming up with your decision) He re-raises to $25 total.
Now, we're out of position, perhaps, but I can't imagine laying this hand down at this point. I've been pushing the table around a tiny tiny bit and $15 to win a pot of $40ish seems like a no brainer. Lets assume that we call pre.
Flop comes
AQT rainbow, only 1 of our suit.
Action is on you in a pot of $53 bucks. Hero?
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Posted Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:19 pm GMT by kainARGH
50$ pot with villan haveing about 50$ left , I'm not sure what lines you could take here that won't end up with both of you all in ( him all in rather ).
If hes 'solid' and plays relativly str8 forward , I think your only chance to knock him off his hand is to put him all in off the flop. Is that our goal? Are we scared he has a better ace so we need to represent 2 pair or a set?
It sounds to me like your not planning on folding after that flop.
Posted Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:03 am GMT by Skribbles
I'd say its completely dependant on your read. I can't really see what you would be ahead of here except for maybe JJ or KK so I'd prolly lay it down if the guy was a real tight ass. But a call isn't too horrible. You have a few outs, maybe only 2 or 3, but outs none the less.
Posted Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:06 am GMT by tame_deuces
I don't think I'm ahead, but I got a backdoor flushdraw, the nutstraight draw and maybe my J is an out too, so let's say 5-6 outs total with two cards to come and a slight chance of being ahead. It isn't gold, but it is far from as bad as it looks either.
I don't see a big problem getting my money in here, especially since we are so short, but I'm not surprised if I lose either.
Donkbet this and all the hands you beat will fold like little girls, so I say check/push. But its close I guess, since AK could maybe fold here (if you think he re-raises with it)
Posted Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:21 pm GMT by supafrey
So is the verdict check or bet?
Posted Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:37 pm GMT by Skribbles
| supafrey wrote: | | So is the verdict check or bet? |
Put him all-in.
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 9:06 am GMT by UrAteUp
If your read on this player is good then you should have the answer to this question. Judging off of the information your providing then I bet out enough to go ahead and move him all in here.
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 9:48 am GMT by Dat_Dude
| Skribbles wrote: |
Put him all-in. |
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 9:59 am GMT by supafrey
So you'd bet 64 into a 53 dollar pot at this point? Why? To make him fold?
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 10:08 am GMT by Skribbles
| supafrey wrote: | | So you'd bet 64 into a 53 dollar pot at this point? Why? To make him fold? |
Couple reasons...
1) You may be able to make him fold a better hand like AK.
2) Leading out for half the pot invites him to push back at you and you'd pretty much have to call anyway.
Only downside to pushing is a hand like KK or JJ will fold.
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 10:53 am GMT by UrAteUp
If he folds then you still take down a decent pot. If you check and he pushes then you have to wonder if he is playing a stronger hand then yours like AK where the all-in push could get him to lay down a hand like AK most likely.
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 11:27 am GMT by supafrey
I don't follow the logic. The only hand that is "better" than ours and could fold is AK. That's the only hand. One. That's it.
If we're only raising 64 to make a better hand fold, there's really only one hand that would do it - and several others that will take our money right then and there and leave us broke.
If we're raising 64 to make a worse hand call with bad odds, we're not doing a very good job of it.
I don't see how the bet is a good one.
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 11:29 am GMT by UrAteUp
| supafrey wrote: | I don't follow the logic. The only hand that is "better" than ours and could fold is AK. That's the only hand. One. That's it.
If we're only raising 64 to make a better hand fold, there's really only one hand that would do it - and several others that will take our money right then and there and leave us broke.
If we're raising 64 to make a worse hand call with bad odds, we're not doing a very good job of it.
I don't see how the bet is a good one. |
| Quote: | | 2) Leading out for half the pot invites him to push back at you and you'd pretty much have to call anyway. |
You might as well ber the aggressor here. You know with AJ chances are your going to get all your chips into that pot anyhow.
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 11:36 am GMT by Skribbles
| supafrey wrote: | I don't follow the logic. The only hand that is "better" than ours and could fold is AK. That's the only hand. One. That's it.
If we're only raising 64 to make a better hand fold, there's really only one hand that would do it - and several others that will take our money right then and there and leave us broke.
If we're raising 64 to make a worse hand call with bad odds, we're not doing a very good job of it.
I don't see how the bet is a good one. |
I simply see it as if your putting the money into to the pot at some point, do it now. Otherwise, check/fold.
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 11:51 am GMT by Dat_Dude
Supa, I assume you would like to find out more information about Villain's hand before committing all your chips. I have some questions then.
1) If you check and he bets big, do you assume you are beat and will you fold? What if he was just making a play since you showed a little weakness?
2) If you continuation bet (say 1/2-2/3 the pot) and he comes over the top, can you now fold this hand knowing you put a lot of chips in the pot?
If you answer YES to question 1, then you should check the flop and be prepared to toss the hand if he bets big.
If you answered NO to question 2 (meaning you wont fold if he raises your continuation bet), then going ALL-IN is your only option since all your chips were going in anyways.
If you make the continuation bet and he just calls, then your only move on the turn is to push unless it is a really scary card.
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 12:13 pm GMT by supafrey
| Dat_Dude wrote: | Supa, I assume you would like to find out more information about Villain's hand before committing all your chips. I have some questions then.
1) If you check and he bets big, do you assume you are beat and will you fold? What if he was just making a play since you showed a little weakness?
2) If you continuation bet (say 1/2-2/3 the pot) and he comes over the top, can you now fold this hand knowing you put a lot of chips in the pot?
If you answer YES to question 1, then you should check the flop and be prepared to toss the hand if he bets big.
If you answered NO to question 2 (meaning you wont fold if he raises your continuation bet), then going ALL-IN is your only option since all your chips were going in anyways.
If you make the continuation bet and he just calls, then your only move on the turn is to push unless it is a really scary card. |
what about if he folds? =P
and just because the money may end up all in the pot regardless, doesn't always mean we should be the ones putting it in there.
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 12:24 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
| supafrey wrote: |
what about if he folds? =P
and just because the money may end up all in the pot regardless, doesn't always mean we should be the ones putting it in there. |
So, basically the play you suggest in this spot is to check in hopes that he commits some money to the pot. You have no intentions of laying this hand down because you feel it is the best, so a check/raise (or call if he goes all in) is the best way to get all his money?
I am starting to see the logic. He reraised preflop, so it is an almost certainty that he will bet out if you check. If you feel your hand is the best right now, then you will be getting more of his money.
Am I way off>
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 3:40 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| supafrey wrote: | what about if he folds? =P
and just because the money may end up all in the pot regardless, doesn't always mean we should be the ones putting it in there. |
If he folds then I take what there is of the pot and be happy. True it might not be as big as it should or could be but its a gain and not a loss. Suppose you check. He checks and a big scare card comes out. Had you pushed after the flop you might had not had to see this card or have to make a descision as to if it helps villians hand or not.
Just my opinion. I can understand where your coming from and what your suggesting but I hate giving a villian a chance to get a card that can help beat me if I do not feel I am beat already.
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 5:02 pm GMT by suitedaces84
Knowing that you can't fold is a terrible reason to go all-in. If you take folding out of the equation deciding whether to check or bet is pretty easy. Just ask yourself if your oppoenent is more likely to call with a hand you'd want him to put money in the pot with or bet with a hand you'd want him to put money in the pot with.
There are a lot of limit hands I play where I into my opponent on the a draw heavy board on the flop and turn with a marginal top pair/mid pair type hand then check the river when it's a brick. This is because there is a better chance he's going to bet a worse hand than call with one. Even though I'm pretty confident my hand is best I still check and call.
Every now and then the situation is reversed. I have a marginal hand and am probably beat but cannot fold due to the size of the pot and the odds I'll be getting. I bet the river for value in these cases. This is because I know my opponent won't fold, will surely bet a better hand, knows I'm showdown bound so he probably won't bet a worse hand.
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 6:43 pm GMT by tame_deuces
The point is pretty easy...we're about 50/50 to win this if EVERY plausible hand villain re-raised with preflop will get it all in the flop.
If we bet first then we increase the chance of only being up called by the hands that beat us.
By check-raising/pushing or check-calling the flop we gain a bigger increase in also getting it all in against the hands we actually beat.
So the passive variant (most likely) will win us more money than the aggressive variant.
And we don't worry about being beat because the stacks are so short and the pot is fairly high, we pretty much can't find a solid fold here.
*edit*
On a general sidenote it should be noted that in my opinion a very common mistake in NL is not calling enough. Calling is an extremely powerful play when used correctly. The TAG stale is often being misapplied into being a 'bet or fold' scenario, something that can be extremely unprofitable with medium holdings.
Think of the old head's up three-card poker game...you get one card...A queen, a king or an ace...and then you bet, highest card win.
Now think about why it would extremely unprofitable to BET when you hold the king, as opposed to calling.
Posted Tue May 02, 2006 1:13 am GMT by supafrey
For your information, Hero checked.
VILLIAN CHECKED BEHIND.
(?)
The turn brought an offsuit 8.
Hero.....?
Posted Tue May 02, 2006 7:56 am GMT by Dat_Dude
| supafrey wrote: |
VILLIAN CHECKED BEHIND.
|
This smells like a trap. I check/call. If he has a monster, you will probably get off somewhat cheap because he won't want to bet so much to scare you off the hand.
Posted Tue May 02, 2006 9:08 am GMT by BeerWench13
| supafrey wrote: | | Action is on you in a pot of $53 bucks. Hero? |
What hand do you have him playing at this point? That's the real question. Do you think he has an A with a higher kicker. This play is tough without a read on what hands he could possibly have to reraise preflop.
Now, with the information given, I would put him on a medium pocket pair, or just tired of you bullying the table. I would bet 2/3 of his stack. It's not quite pot-sized, but makes him commit all of his chips or fold. I think you have him at this point, but if you're behind, you have outs to catch up and get paid.
Posted Tue May 02, 2006 9:35 am GMT by tame_deuces
Yeah, I'd just bet now. Maybe he has you toasted but chances are that now he'll call with mediocre holdings too.
Posted Fri May 05, 2006 4:00 am GMT by red_pen
Flop - check/raise all-in.
As played, check/raise all-in the turn.
If checked behind, value bet the river ? - (not sure about this actually).
You are either ahead (he holds KK, JJ, 77-99) and he's drawing thin, or behind and you're drawing thin. A quick guess at his range makes it about 50:50 either way, although I put him ahead more of the time.
I think the only way you're increasing your net worth here is by trying to induce a bluff from a worse hand. If you bet he folds worse hands.
If you disagree tell me why, cos I'm just making it up as I go along.
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