continuation bets and straight (/) flush draws |
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Posted Mon May 01, 2006 12:16 pm GMT by kingetje
i will put both these in the same topic as i dont want to clutter up the board....
1)i read in another topic someone said "when you continue bet 1/3d-2/3d of the pot..".... does everyone do this? whenever i make a continuation bet its always pot sized... this way, when i bet the pot again but this time with a made hand, people wont know the difference, when you keep betting a certain percentage of the pot when you miss the flop, and you bet bigger when you have a good hand,... your play can become a bit see through
i also see people bluffing with the amount of a few blinds or even a single blind... what the hell is that? when i bluff i make sure its potsized as well, or maybe even bigger when i suspect someone is on a draw and i will want to make it expensive for em. sometims though when you just know noone in the pot has hit top pair, but you suspect someone has middle pair or bottom pair, i will bet big to make it hard to call with anyhting but top pair
2) now....straight/ flush draws... powerful hands. i'd like some insight in how people play these.... bet with it? check-raise?... what do you do with em?
but i'd also like to know is there a difference between the strength of a hand that has a straight draw and a flush draw (like Th-Jh with a Qs-Kh-3h flop) and an actual straight flush draw? (like 7h-6h with a 4h-5h-Kc) flop. is there any difference in the strengths of these hands? and any difference in the ways you play them?
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Posted Mon May 01, 2006 12:34 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
| kingetje wrote: | i will put both these in the same topic as i dont want to clutter up the board....
1)i read in another topic someone said "when you continue bet 1/3d-2/3d of the pot..".... does everyone do this? whenever i make a continuation bet its always pot sized...
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It is usually a matter of preference. The main issue at hand is pot control. If you miss the flop but were the aggressor preflop, then if you come out betting the pot and get a caller, then what? If you want to continue to be aggressive, then have you bet MORE on the turn now than you would have had to if you bet 1/2-2/3 on the flop. If you dont think your hand is good after a flop call and you have no intention of proceeding in this hand, then you lost more money than you needed to due to the large flop bet. If you bet smaller on the flop, this also means you can make another bet on the turn and still get out cheaply if villain gets aggressive.
| kingetje wrote: | | this way, when i bet the pot again but this time with a made hand, people wont know the difference |
And they would if you bet less? If you bet 2/3 pot one hand and you missed and 2/3 pot next hand and you hit, how will they know the difference more often than if they were pot sized bets?
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 3:46 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Depending if I am in a ring game or tournament depends on how I play a draw. Other factors include position. In ring games I do like betting with flush draws and straight draws to desguise my hand.
As for continuation bets, I use them more for an information tool and ruse to disguise my hand.
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 5:12 pm GMT by Gunslinger
When you are the PF aggressor and the flop misses you completely, c-betting around half the pot gives yourself better odds as well. By this I mean, when you c-bet half the pot, your opponents have to fold only one out of three times for your play to be even money in the long run. They have to fold half of the time to a pot sized c-bet for that play to be even money.
Posted Mon May 01, 2006 6:45 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
If you always bet the pot when you continuation bet, you can lose control of the pot size pretty quickly, and you often unnecesarily risk chips. If people have nothing, they will probably fold for half the pot, but if they have you beat with a strong hand, they will probably at LEAST call no matter how much you bet, so your additional chips you bet do nothing but make it worse for you when your opponents pick up a hand.
Betting minimum is rarely a good way to bluff unless the pot only has the blinds in it. Betting a small amount CAN be effective, however, when your opponents are weak, or the bet still represents a modest portion of their stacks (as happens often in SnG's).
With straight + flush draws, I almost always desire to be the last bettor so I have the option to buy a free card with my raise, but OOP, I usually just value bet my hand straight-forwardly (remember your pot equity on the flop is about .54 with an open-ended straight draw with a flush draw) rather than check-raise. Then if I make my hand on the turn but suspect that it may also have helped my opponent, I can check-raise then. Also, I prefer not to check the flop because it may give my opponent a free card that helps him and reduces my turn equity greatly, leaving me in a situation where I may have to fold a premium draw.
P.S. The actual open-ended straight flush draw is usually somewhat stronger because you can make the pure nuts with two cards and may leave an A-high flush drawing dead. Otherwise, the cards that form the higher end of the straight are always strongest, because pairs may also be outs. High card strength supercedes the ability to make a straight flush.
Example: I would rather have K  Q on a J 10  5 flop than have 2  3 on a 4 5 Q  flop, because in the first example, any K or Q may be extra outs, and only one flush can beat me if a non-ace comes out, whereas in the other example, ANY higher diamonds beat my flush if I don't get the straight flush, and 2's and 3's are unlikely to give me the best hand.
Posted Tue May 02, 2006 11:40 am GMT by Soup_dog
Everyone else said pretty much what I was thinking. I tend to c-bet about half the pot. You will get the same people to fold for that as you would for a pot sized bet and it keeps your expenses down in the face of aggression.
Posted Tue May 02, 2006 11:54 am GMT by tame_deuces
I tend to pot alot, but I play low stakes and many of my opponents aren't too good at poker so they'll call with the weirdest stuff, but fold on the river anyway.
It can vary greatly though...sometimes I'm feeling all schizo at the table, one second I'm not cont betting TPTK or calling down with something weird. I dunno, the chips sorta move before my mind catch up sometimes.
Lately I've grown to like lower bets though, because it makes for a more relaxing game.
Some players swear to 'potsized' as the only way to go, some dislike going above 2/3. I don't think either player is wrong as long as the rest of the game is adjusted accordingly.
The 'potters' will tend to lose somewhat bigger pots but they'll very often get away with missed AK hands and similar better than other players will.
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