So I tried to help this guy... |
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Posted Tue May 02, 2006 10:31 am GMT by tame_deuces
With an MTT of all things. I was just visiting and he had an MTT running and wanted my input on his hands. I think it was a 10$ MTT freezeout thingy.
Hands are by memory but should be fairly accurate.
All hands take place in the early levels of the game with the bubble far away and as we start he is sitting at a table with about 15-16BBs and the average stack at the table is...well...higher, but not by too much more...25-30BBs maybe. Hands are not in order of appearance.
Hand 1:
About 16BBs. CO. We see 2 EP avg. stacked limpers to MP, who is half our stack raises 4x (weirdo). We have two queens, I tell him to push.
Hand 2:
We have about 10BBs or so. Button. Two fairly 'tight' limpers to us who approx. doubles our stack . We are dealt 7 7  . I tell him to push. We argue if limping for set value or hoping for a race is the best move, thoughts?
Hand 3:
We have about 11BBs. Button. It folds to us. SB is short like us and BB is stacked alittle higher (22-25). We are dealt K  2  . I tell him to push.
Hand 4:
We have about 15BBs in late MP. Three limpers to us (madness). We are dealt KK. He wants to standard raise, I tell him to push.
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Posted Tue May 02, 2006 11:16 am GMT by Soup_dog
And your question is?
Posted Tue May 02, 2006 11:20 am GMT by tame_deuces
| Soup_dog wrote: | | And your question is? |
Hmm, if I'm a donk I guess.
Nah, really just wondering if these pushes were justified. I'm ofcourse more curious about some than others.
People can answer on the donk bit too if they want too though.
Posted Tue May 02, 2006 11:35 am GMT by Dat_Dude
Hand 1: Push not only justified, I think it is almost necessary.
Hand 2: Either limping or pushing could be argued for the right move. Are these "tight" players usually aggressive when they have good hands? Do they raise a lot preflop? If they ARE aggressive and they limped, chances are they have suited Ax or a hand like AT that you will probably get them to fold (if they are as tight as you say they are).
Hand 3: This really depends on "your" image. If you have been pushing a lot preflop, then the chance of a blind calling you with Ax is a lot higher than if you have displayed very tight play.
Hand 4: With 3 limpers, I like the push. If you make a standard raise and the first limper calls, then the other two might like their odds and call. KK against 3 players is too scary for my taste. Push here, hope to get one caller and double up or even just picking up the blinds you can still be happy.
Posted Tue May 02, 2006 11:36 am GMT by Soup_dog
Well... when I have an average stack in a tourny I'm not a huge fan of pushing all-in. I tend to go with more of the standard 4X bet preflop and fraction of pot sized bets afterwards. If you don't go all-in, you can't get knocked out. I try to win them preflop or post flop with just a single bet. If that doesnt work then I need to reevaluate my position.
If I am short stacked or have a big stack I have no problem pushing. (Make a comeback or bully the table.)
Anyways, for the hands you mentioned...
Hand 1: His raise will probably get you in a heads-up position anyway so I would probably call and see a flop. He will probably lead out, and if it's all unders, I would push. If he checks I would make a pot sized bet if there are no overs. If there are overs and he checks I would bet half the pot.
Hand 2: Ugh. Tough choice. Good reasons for either move. I think I would limp and hope to hit.
Hand 3: I would raise 4xBB. If you get any kind of call, reevaluate. I know some people would say that you are crippled if you fold post flop, but there has been too many times where I come back from almost nothing to get in the money. (I happen to think I play better short stacked. Maybe thats because I always am.  )
Hand 4: Gotta get some value from those cowboys. Raise 3xBB and push on a reraise or post flop (If no ace hits.)
Posted Tue May 02, 2006 11:43 am GMT by Dave B
I cant argue with any of the individual hands.
BUT, if you are looking to move in and pick up limpers or small raisers as your only move, then you are looking for trouble. By moving in more often, you are more likely to get called when you push with the 77, which you clearly dont want.
The K2 hand you are likely to be called if you have been pushing a lot. I likely fold here. I prefer pushing w/ just K2 or worse 1 or 2 off the button, since it isnt so obvious.
I dont like the push w/ QQ or KK. You have enough chips to take a bit more risk and get more value from these. I would consider calling her and let them hang themselves if the flop is undercards.
The KK I probably just raise 3-4x BB, that should give the last caller odds to come in. With AA or KK, I would prefer to win more then just the blinds. If an ace comes, I can fold and still have 3-4.
With big pairs, consider this too. Often someone will limp w/ a junk pair and hope for a set. If you raise a normal amount, they now have more of an incentive to move all in and steal the pot.
Posted Tue May 02, 2006 11:50 am GMT by Soup_dog
| Dave B wrote: | I cant argue with any of the individual hands.
BUT, if you are looking to move in and pick up limpers or small raisers as your only move, then you are looking for trouble. By moving in more often, you are more likely to get called when you push with the 77, which you clearly dont want.
The K2 hand you are likely to be called if you have been pushing a lot. I likely fold here. I prefer pushing w/ just K2 or worse 1 or 2 off the button, since it isnt so obvious.
I dont like the push w/ QQ or KK. You have enough chips to take a bit more risk and get more value from these. I would consider calling her and let them hang themselves if the flop is undercards.
The KK I probably just raise 3-4x BB, that should give the last caller odds to come in. With AA or KK, I would prefer to win more then just the blinds. If an ace comes, I can fold and still have 3-4.
With big pairs, consider this too. Often someone will limp w/ a junk pair and hope for a set. If you raise a normal amount, they now have more of an incentive to move all in and steal the pot. |
Wow. I feel so validated when the legendary Dave B agrees with one of my plays.
Posted Tue May 02, 2006 2:01 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Hand 1: Facing an initial raise, I like the push. If we pick it up, great. If we get called, great, we're a favorite over all but two hands.
Hand 2: Limping for a set is the worst move here. We just don't have enough of a stack to make it worth it (Harrington details this in his "Zone Strategy" section). We simply won't make enough back when we DO flop a set to make this play worth it. Either fold or push, and I'm strongly in favor of pushing right here. If you have to race you have to race, but it's better to get the money in as a 6-to-5 favorite right here... chances are we will have to get lucky once or twice to win this thing anyway.
Hand 3: Depends how much you've been pushing. If you've been pushing a lot, I would probably fold right here, because your hand is quite weak. If they're going to call us with a marginal hand, I'd rather we have something with a little more strength. If you haven't been pushing a lot recently, this is a good time.
Hand 4: I prefer raising to about 4x or 4.5x the BB here, and then get the rest in on the flop if no Ace hits. I think pushing just doesn't quite get enough value for our hand, and with 15BB, we have a little room to run. I'd say do a slightly larger than normal raise, and then push the flop if no ace hits.
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