How to get better at hold'em? |
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Posted Sat May 06, 2006 3:23 pm GMT by Cricket_Fire
I'm fairly new to hold'em, and am trying to get better. I bought Super System (1), Poker for Dummies, and Phil Gordon's Little Green Book. I've learned alot since I started. However...
I'm finding all this info very overwhelming. Is there anything in particular I should learn/get good at, and really drill in, before other things?
I guess I'm asking, as a new player, what should I concentrate on at this point in my learning?
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Posted Sat May 06, 2006 5:35 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
Keep reading your books, and definately keep reading these posts. If theres plenty of facts and tips that you learn when you're reading here, that means that you will get alot of it. I've seen you post some play money hands, and its definately good that you're getting feedback on them too. I think you should keep playing play money until you are confident going into a small stakes real money game.
Specifically though, I think you should get more familiar with pot odds, and PF hand selection with regards to position. Also if you have any questions we could continue to answer them. Just keep up the work and keep learning.
Posted Sat May 06, 2006 5:41 pm GMT by Cricket_Fire
| LeafsFan1122 wrote: | Keep reading your books, and definately keep reading these posts. If theres plenty of facts and tips that you learn when you're reading here, that means that you will get alot of it. I've seen you post some play money hands, and its definately good that you're getting feedback on them too. I think you should keep playing play money until you are confident going into a small stakes real money game.
Specifically though, I think you should get more familiar with pot odds, and PF hand selection with regards to position. Also if you have any questions we could continue to answer them. Just keep up the work and keep learning. |
Cool, thanks.
I've built up my play money "bank roll", and am playing in higher stakes play money SnG's . They seem to play out somewhat realistic.
Only real money games I play are $5 SnG's with friends, usually weekly. Playing tonight, so I'll try and post how it went.
Posted Sat May 06, 2006 5:42 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
Good luck. 
Posted Sat May 06, 2006 5:45 pm GMT by JackKingOff
good luck indeedy 
Posted Sat May 06, 2006 8:53 pm GMT by Johny
The most important thing you can do now is play, play, play. You have to gain experience to become better, reading a book doesn't do that.
I suggest you keep reading books and posts, but try to really focus on playing, you'll learn tons.
Posted Sat May 06, 2006 9:53 pm GMT by JRM4833
| Johny4444 wrote: | The most important thing you can do now is play, play, play. You have to gain experience to become better, reading a book doesn't do that.
I suggest you keep reading books and posts, but try to really focus on playing, you'll learn tons. |
I have to agree here. And as helpful as the play money games are, losing real money teaches you things that a book or a play money tournament never can. From the sounds of your experience and willingness to learn so far, I don't think you'd have a problem if you played a couple of $.01/.02, $.05/.10, and/or $5 SNGs tournaments.
As far as what you should focus on in your learning, LeafsFan is right on. You have to learn what hands you want to play and why, as well as how to understand pot odds and when you're making a "good" bet.
Posted Sat May 06, 2006 11:28 pm GMT by Cricket_Fire
Thanks for the tips guys!
Well, I didn't win tonight, but I played awsome. We had more people then we'd ever had before. usually winner get's 30-35 dollars, tongiht winner got $55, 2nd got $10. After 5 grueling hours (3 hours heads up, with the person who taught me how to play heads up), I bust in an OESD w/ 1 over card. Probably shouldn't have been all in, but I was just done at this point.
Posted Sun May 07, 2006 10:56 am GMT by zinn0
| Cricket_Fire wrote: | | After 5 grueling hours (3 hours heads up, with the person who taught me how to play heads up)... |
You might want to consider raising the blinds more frequently.
Posted Sun May 07, 2006 3:42 pm GMT by Cricket_Fire
| zinn0 wrote: | | Cricket_Fire wrote: | | After 5 grueling hours (3 hours heads up, with the person who taught me how to play heads up)... |
You might want to consider raising the blinds more frequently. |
Probably lol.
We started the night at $.10-$.20, and ended at $2.00 antes (we stopped raising them for a while once we reached $.50-$1.00, dunno why lol).
Thanks again for all the advice :D
Posted Sun May 07, 2006 9:19 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
Was this a cash game? 
Posted Mon May 08, 2006 8:44 am GMT by Johny
We play with similar limits in tourneys in my home games. We were used to playing with the same color chips in cash games so we decided to use the same chip denominations for tourneys.
Posted Mon May 08, 2006 2:19 pm GMT by Cricket_Fire
| LeafsFan1122 wrote: | | Was this a cash game? |
No, single table tourny kinda thing. We had rebuys for ~ an hour (I think, I never buy back in so not sure).
Posted Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
That's cool. I know of some guys who play tourneys with cash valued chips too...I find it sort of wierd though. I think tournaments should have chip values instead of monetary values. It also makes the game more exciting saying "I raise 10,000!" Instead of 1.00$ 
Posted Mon May 08, 2006 3:36 pm GMT by TxShadow
Hey, basically what everyone else said regarding playing as much as you can. And also, as stated, a good place to start would be learning which hands are profitable to play and from what position.
Also, in regards to your tournament: I actually just played over the weekend with some friends (trying my best to get a regular game going) and though I've been getting them to play FL and NL cash games, this past weekend we decided to do a couple of SnG style tournaments instead. I did a little bit of research online to find a chip denomination and distribution table that would fit my number of chips and a good blind structure. I came up with a pretty decent one, starting with $1000 worth of chips. The blind structure I had in place made the tournaments last about an hour and a half max. It was pretty fun.
If you're interested I could post what we ended up using or I can PM you or whatever.
Posted Mon May 08, 2006 4:28 pm GMT by Cricket_Fire
That'd be awsome Tx, thanks.
Here are 2 of the biggest hands of the night (and 2 of the best we've ever had). This is from what I can remember, not exact, but this was the gyst.
Hand 1
This was about 15 mins into the tourny. We had 3 new people none of us had ever played with, and 2 of them were in the hand with me. No reads on new players.
There was a bet by New Guy 1, call by New Guy 2, raise by me, both call.
Flop - Qh 6d 9d
I raised all in (think it was a bit more then pot, maybe 1.5x? but I really wanted to take it down there, or at the very most, get 1 call. Didn't want draws trying to hit. What should I have done here?). I had them both covered, and both called.
New Guy 1 flips Ad Jd, for nut flush draw
New Guy 2 flips Qd 4d, for top pair (w/ what he thought would be a good flush draw lol)
I ended up winning the hand, and since all stacks were fairly even, almost tripled up. Don't know if I played it right though?
Hand 2
Don't really want advice on this, just thoguht it was funny. Heads up, ended up all in preflop.
me - A4
him - A9
Flop - A35
Turn - 2
River - 4
I would've won it there if that f*cking river didn't come 
Posted Mon May 08, 2006 6:04 pm GMT by TxShadow
Not sure how many chips you have, but this setup is pretty "low chipcount" friendly.
Colors can vary depending on what you have of course.
Red $5 (20 per player) = $100
Green $25 (16 per player) = $400
Black $100 (5 per player) = $500
Total # of chips per player: 41
Total $ amount of chips per player: $1000
Blind levels were as follows (doing this from memory, so hopefully it's right):
5/10
10/20
15/30
20/40
25/50
50/100
100/200
150/300
200/400
Ours never went past 150/300, but after 200/400 I'd probably start going:
300/600
400/800
...etc.
Tourney should definately be ending soon at this point.
We had blinds going up about every 16 minutes (we were using a snooze feature on someones cellphone for a blinds timer, hence the odd time :p) which worked out OK. Once it got down to just a few players, we switched to "turbo mode" with 8 to 10 minute blinds. This would be optional, and the reason we did it is that it was just friends playing and we didn't want people sitting out for too long.
Anyway, it was a lot of fun. If you try it out, let me know how you like it
*edit* - We started with 5/10, not 10/20. Corrected.
Posted Mon May 08, 2006 6:17 pm GMT by TxShadow
Oh, I forgot to mention, once blinds went up to 50/100 we took a break and "colored up" the chips to get all of the $5 chips off the table since they become a little tedious to use. I don't know if you're familiar with doing this, but basically we had people make 5-stacks of red ($5) chips and gave them a green ($25) chip for each stack. We round up, so if someone has just a couple of reds left over, they get a green chip anyway. The amount that they "gain" from this is negligible so don't worry about it.
Posted Mon May 08, 2006 6:22 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
| TxShadow wrote: | | We round up, so if someone has just a couple of reds left over, they get a green chip anyway. |
At my home games we do a chip-up as well. As you said, the smaller chips are exchanged for bigger valued ones, but with the remaining extra ones we have a chip race. If a player has one extra chip, he is dealt a card, for 2 extra chips, 2 cards, etc etc.. But basically the highest card takes the chips and wins the race. It's a little fun thing to do to determine who gets the extra TC value. 8)
Posted Mon May 08, 2006 6:43 pm GMT by TxShadow
| LeafsFan1122 wrote: | | TxShadow wrote: | | We round up, so if someone has just a couple of reds left over, they get a green chip anyway. |
At my home games we do a chip-up as well. As you said, the smaller chips are exchanged for bigger valued ones, but with the remaining extra ones we have a chip race. If a player has one extra chip, he is dealt a card, for 2 extra chips, 2 cards, etc etc.. But basically the highest card takes the chips and wins the race. It's a little fun thing to do to determine who gets the extra TC value. 8) |
That's a cool idea 8). Basically everyone was just outside smoking while I was inside coloring up the chips, so I just did it the easy way. I should have taken all the extras for my efforts 
Posted Wed May 10, 2006 2:23 pm GMT by Cricket_Fire
Thanks for all the ideas guys!
I just ordered HoH 1 & 2 from Amazon (there's a deal if you buy both), so that should keep me busy or a while 8)
Posted Thu May 11, 2006 5:01 pm GMT by Ryan231
| Cricket_Fire wrote: | That'd be awsome Tx, thanks.
Here are 2 of the biggest hands of the night (and 2 of the best we've ever had). This is from what I can remember, not exact, but this was the gyst.
Hand 1
This was about 15 mins into the tourny. We had 3 new people none of us had ever played with, and 2 of them were in the hand with me. No reads on new players.
There was a bet by New Guy 1, call by New Guy 2, raise by me, both call.
Flop - Qh 6d 9d
I raised all in (think it was a bit more then pot, maybe 1.5x? but I really wanted to take it down there, or at the very most, get 1 call. Didn't want draws trying to hit. What should I have done here?). I had them both covered, and both called.
New Guy 1 flips Ad Jd, for nut flush draw
New Guy 2 flips Qd 4d, for top pair (w/ what he thought would be a good flush draw lol)
I ended up winning the hand, and since all stacks were fairly even, almost tripled up. Don't know if I played it right though?
Hand 2
Don't really want advice on this, just thoguht it was funny. Heads up, ended up all in preflop.
me - A4
him - A9
Flop - A35
Turn - 2
River - 4
I would've won it there if that f*cking river didn't come |
What did you have in hand 1? Also how much were the blinds and how much did you raise. I see a lot of new players get a strong hand and either underbet preflop or massive overbet preflop. I'm assuming you had AQ? If you made a raise big enough to have nearly 1/4 of your stack in before the flop cold I think you made a mistake. Only other hands here that I can see you having is maybe AA or KK, or QQ. With AA and KK I like to pump it up 4-5xBB preflop and try to get someone into the pot with me and take down a nice flop, if you had AA or KK here I think this move is fine. The problem I see with making huge preflop raises with hands like AQ, AK and AJ is they don't always connect and it gets costly when you don't. Raising 3-3.5xBB leaves you a chance to toss the hand away if you miss, and also the pot isn't massive so a nice 2/3 pot sized bet on the flop isn't going to dent the hell out of your stack. When you start facing strong players massive preflop raises won't work anymore and you'll end up in pots with a lot of hands you don't want to see (bigger A or any PP can really hurt).
With A4 preflop and heads up I'd say this is one of those trouble hands. The A is a very powerful card heads up but with such a bad kicker you don't want to get into any short of race unless your opponent has a ton more chips or you have a ton more chips. I've made all sorts of bad mistakes with hands like that, the thing you have to think about is wha sort of hands will I get a call with? A8+, any PP or even KQ sometimes. These are even fairly loose preflop hands in heads up, you have to realize these strong hands have a lot of value and that is steal value. Its a lot better to make a steal raise when you have a good hand preflop but it doesn't warrant making a strong move all-in preflop. Your behind to so many different hands and if someone is re-raising preflop its usually because they have something like a low PP or A9+. If you make a good sized raise (3xBB) and the guy re-raises then you can think about it and make a toss unless you really feel the guy has crap. You posted the hand with A4 as if you had him, hitting a board like that with the outkicked A when its likely the 9 will play is really bad for you. I'd be thanking for lucky stars for that one, and if I'm understanding it right you guys were playing re-raise war before the flop. If someone is willing to re-raise but not go all-in preflop its because they want your money in the middle. If I'm stealing preflop I don't move in, I usually make it 3x their raise, if they got the goods I can get away, theres very few hands that you can call with in this spot after I make a strong re-raise. By just pushing in some players will call because they may think you have something like a weak A or a low PP and take their chances.
Edit: After reading your post it seems like you are trying to improve your game and learn it the best way possible. I am too in the same boat and I guess I'll give you a little advice that has worked for me personally. When I first started playing I played for the huge pots and the races and played tight the rest of the time. I figured I'd let math play for me, I'd wait until mathematically I thought I had the best chance the win and then move into a pot with big bets/raises. The problem with this is your not learning how to play the game, your just making moves like a robot would. I'd advise you to start playing some small pot poker as well as playing the big hands big too. I found after a while good players avoid you when you get into a pot and get committed, they realized I was smart enough to know when I was best and I'd make it so they couldn't outplay me. The only problem I found with this style was that sometimes the cards go sour and if you play like this your going to take an awful downswing, and also its no fun. Just trying to say next time you pick up a hand like AK or AQ make a small raise and play poker by making feeler bets and reads on opponents. Mixing these types of plays together helps you avoid taking massive swings (I call them rides) when the cards go sour and it helps you learn.
Posted Thu May 11, 2006 5:09 pm GMT by Cricket_Fire
| Ryan231 wrote: | | Cricket_Fire wrote: | That'd be awsome Tx, thanks.
Here are 2 of the biggest hands of the night (and 2 of the best we've ever had). This is from what I can remember, not exact, but this was the gyst.
Hand 1
This was about 15 mins into the tourny. We had 3 new people none of us had ever played with, and 2 of them were in the hand with me. No reads on new players.
There was a bet by New Guy 1, call by New Guy 2, raise by me, both call.
Flop - Qh 6d 9d
I raised all in (think it was a bit more then pot, maybe 1.5x? but I really wanted to take it down there, or at the very most, get 1 call. Didn't want draws trying to hit. What should I have done here?). I had them both covered, and both called.
New Guy 1 flips Ad Jd, for nut flush draw
New Guy 2 flips Qd 4d, for top pair (w/ what he thought would be a good flush draw lol)
I ended up winning the hand, and since all stacks were fairly even, almost tripled up. Don't know if I played it right though?
Hand 2
Don't really want advice on this, just thoguht it was funny. Heads up, ended up all in preflop.
me - A4
him - A9
Flop - A35
Turn - 2
River - 4
I would've won it there if that f*cking river didn't come |
I had KK
What did you have in hand 1? Also how much were the blinds and how much did you raise. I see a lot of new players get a strong hand and either underbet preflop or massive overbet preflop. I'm assuming you had AQ? If you made a raise big enough to have nearly 1/4 of your stack in before the flop cold I think you made a mistake. Only other hands here that I can see you having is maybe AA or KK, or QQ. With AA and KK I like to pump it up 4-5xBB preflop and try to get someone into the pot with me and take down a nice flop, if you had AA or KK here I think this move is fine. The problem I see with making huge preflop raises with hands like AQ, AK and AJ is they don't always connect and it gets costly when you don't. Raising 3-3.5xBB leaves you a chance to toss the hand away if you miss, and also the pot isn't massive so a nice 2/3 pot sized bet on the flop isn't going to dent the hell out of your stack. When you start facing strong players massive preflop raises won't work anymore and you'll end up in pots with a lot of hands you don't want to see (bigger A or any PP can really hurt).
With A4 preflop and heads up I'd say this is one of those trouble hands. The A is a very powerful card heads up but with such a bad kicker you don't want to get into any short of race unless your opponent has a ton more chips or you have a ton more chips. I've made all sorts of bad mistakes with hands like that, the thing you have to think about is wha sort of hands will I get a call with? A8+, any PP or even KQ sometimes. These are even fairly loose preflop hands in heads up, you have to realize these strong hands have a lot of value and that is steal value. Its a lot better to make a steal raise when you have a good hand preflop but it doesn't warrant making a strong move all-in preflop. Your behind to so many different hands and if someone is re-raising preflop its usually because they have something like a low PP or A9+. If you make a good sized raise (3xBB) and the guy re-raises then you can think about it and make a toss unless you really feel the guy has crap. You posted the hand with A4 as if you had him, hitting a board like that with the outkicked A when its likely the 9 will play is really bad for you. I'd be thanking for lucky stars for that one, and if I'm understanding it right you guys were playing re-raise war before the flop. If someone is willing to re-raise but not go all-in preflop its because they want your money in the middle. If I'm stealing preflop I don't move in, I usually make it 3x their raise, if they got the goods I can get away, theres very few hands that you can call with in this spot after I make a strong re-raise. By just pushing in some players will call because they may think you have something like a weak A or a low PP and take their chances. |
Thanks for all the advice! :D
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