Posted Sat May 13, 2006 12:48 am GMT by Ryan231
So we are playing our weekly poker game at my buddy's place and I get knocked out early and decide to be a nice guy and be the permenant dealer. This hand comes up:
SB vs BB vs button to the flop unraised
Flop Js-4s-4c
Basically SB and button get all in where SB shows 64o and button shows A5 of spades for the nut flush draw. Now they didn't turn the cards over after all-in was called because each player was counting down the chips and etc. While the counting was happening the host grabs the button's cards and shows them to me (A5s) and says lets see if he hits the flush. I peel off the top card as first burnt then peak at the turn and river (7d, 9s). The host says in a quiet whisper "hes got him", I say "boat draw tho", and then both players turn over their cards for everyone to see.
At this point I go to deal the turn, now out of habit I burned another card and the next card that comes down is the 4h, I immediately notice it but think maybe Im just crazy, until I turn up the 10c on the river. I say shit this isn't right and say out loud "it should of been 7d and 9s", I proceed to turn over the cards burnt and show them both. The player with the 64o is outraged I feel like a dick but the host agrees that we saw both cards and I was able to call them out and then turn over the burnt ones to show the right cards.
Basically what do you guys think should of happend? Its wrong to take back the bets because the flush was coming, but the other player feels he got screwed.
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Sat May 13, 2006 1:47 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
The really wrong part was to go rabbit hunting in a live deck. You guys couldn't wait 30 seconds to find out what would happen along with everyone else?
Awful.
Posted Sat May 13, 2006 8:15 am GMT by MasterShake
You can't start digging through a deck during a hand like that. It's just a really big no no for the reason you just described. It adds confusion where there shouldn't be any.
Posted Sat May 13, 2006 8:28 am GMT by supafrey
never ever ever never ever ever look at the cards to come. For any reason.
Posted Sat May 13, 2006 8:58 am GMT by JackKingOff
yes specially if they can read u or something... and the play is not completely finished...
Posted Sat May 13, 2006 9:02 am GMT by zinn0
| supafrey wrote: | | never ever ever never ever ever look at the cards to come. For any reason. |
Posted Sat May 13, 2006 10:15 am GMT by tame_deuces
Yeah, messing with a live deck was horrible of you.
I usually stick with Robert's Rules of Poker.
'If the dealer prematurely deals any cards before the betting is complete, those cards will not play'
So I'd deal a new turn/river. And for the future, stop messing with a live deck and enforce some kind of penalty system for people who mess around.
A good tip is to avoid declaring hands dead or stuff like that unless in extreme situations (like someone finding two identical cards) or unless the dealer error occurs before anyone has taken action in the hand...it will quicken the game, and avoid that people can 'take advantage' of the rules.
Posted Sat May 13, 2006 10:34 am GMT by MasterShake
I think the betting was complete, and that's not the issue that I see. The issue I see is that when you start fishing through the deck, you might not pay attention to wether or not you burned, which sounds like it was the case here. THat's why I tell players to NEVER prematurely burn a card until you are ready to flip any of the board cards.
Posted Sat May 13, 2006 12:02 pm GMT by JohnnyCache
So TWO people not in the hand were digging through the deck?
Don't do that.
Then this never happens.
Posted Sat May 13, 2006 12:15 pm GMT by kainARGH
Another reason you don't want to dig through the deck prematurally during live play is, depending on how well you know the people your playing with you can be accussed of cheating.
and that jsut opens up a whole new can of worms you don't really want to deal with ....with anyone - close friends or otherwise.
Some of my favorit homegames broke up because people started accusing one another of cheating 
So another tip , always keep the deck on the table.  ( i used to sub conciously hold the deck in my hands and sometimes take it off the table - quickly started to remember not to do that )
Posted Sat May 13, 2006 12:33 pm GMT by snoogins47
In the little friendly homegames I play occasionally, and used to play constantly, people would do the premature rabbit all the time. Even me. The key though is that you're with a bunch of people who completely trust one another and won't get completely upset if something weird happens, as long as there's a reasonably neutral option.
I don't think this specific thing ever actually came up in any of our games, at least when I was sober enough to remember it, but generally if we couldn't think of a better solution, we'd just call the hand dead, take our money back, and start over. Here, I think I'd typically favor the "grab all the cards burned/accidentally exposed, reshuffle, and deal a new turn/river" method. It's all random anyway.
Here's a tip though: if the game isn't the kind of game where you won't see things like people showing their hands prematurely, aka if the game is even remotely serious on any level at all, it's probably best to enforce rules against these things. However, if you really must rabbit and see what happens, burn/turn/burn/river like you normally would, just place them face down. Then peek. That'll save you a lot of trouble. Or, like, learn to pay attention to what the hell you're doing.
Also, why the hell, if all the action was over, didn't you just deal the cards face up on the table like any reasonable person would have done?
Posted Sat May 13, 2006 8:40 pm GMT by Ryan231
| snoogins47 wrote: | In the little friendly homegames I play occasionally, and used to play constantly, people would do the premature rabbit all the time. Even me. The key though is that you're with a bunch of people who completely trust one another and won't get completely upset if something weird happens, as long as there's a reasonably neutral option.
I don't think this specific thing ever actually came up in any of our games, at least when I was sober enough to remember it, but generally if we couldn't think of a better solution, we'd just call the hand dead, take our money back, and start over. Here, I think I'd typically favor the "grab all the cards burned/accidentally exposed, reshuffle, and deal a new turn/river" method. It's all random anyway.
Here's a tip though: if the game isn't the kind of game where you won't see things like people showing their hands prematurely, aka if the game is even remotely serious on any level at all, it's probably best to enforce rules against these things. However, if you really must rabbit and see what happens, burn/turn/burn/river like you normally would, just place them face down. Then peek. That'll save you a lot of trouble. Or, like, learn to pay attention to what the hell you're doing.
Also, why the hell, if all the action was over, didn't you just deal the cards face up on the table like any reasonable person would have done? |
We are all buddies and this happens a lot (rabbit hunting with live deck). I'd never do it with people I wasn't friends with because it could look like im rigging it of course.
I didn't deal the cards face up because usually we wait until both hands are turned over before dealing the turn/river.
If it was me I wouldn't have cared because I would have trusted my two buddies to know what was coming and not screw me over. IMO the guy that got knocked out was just pissed that he was out and dragged the issue out and made us feel really bad. I've seen the same guy go hunting before many times which is way I was sort of suprised this kind of thing upset him. If I didn't know the people well and it caused me to lose the hand then yes, I'd have said we toss the hand. The thing is I saw the cards coming and so did the host and when the wrong cards came out I said "This is wrong, these aren't the cards its supposed to be 7d-9c" and I set the deck down and flipped over the 2 burns and exposed 7d-9c.
Posted Sat May 13, 2006 8:46 pm GMT by kingetje
you just accidentally burned another card when you had already burned... just switch the cards back deal them the way they should have been...
they were already all-in so no action to come, so the exposed cards arent an issue anymore
Posted Sat May 13, 2006 9:18 pm GMT by Ryan231
I don't really understand what you mean by the exposed cards didn't mean anything? I did exactly what you said, I redealt the right cards but the guy was pissed cause he thought he had won because of the false turn/river.
Posted Sun May 14, 2006 9:55 am GMT by supafrey
| Ryan231 wrote: | | I don't really understand what you mean by the exposed cards didn't mean anything? I did exactly what you said, I redealt the right cards but the guy was pissed cause he thought he had won because of the false turn/river. |
He can think whatever he wants.
And stop looking at the live deck. Everyone. Ever. Completely.
Posted Mon May 15, 2006 1:26 pm GMT by BeerWench13
I had a similar experience in a home game except I wasn't dealing, I was in the hand. When I pushed, the other guy called and was counting how much he had (I had him covered). Meanwhile, the dealer was sifting through the deck to see the outcome. My cards were already exposed when he called, but he had not exposed his yet. I always watch anyone dealing in a home game and noticed him burn while he was "rabbit hunting" and then try to burn again. As soon as he burned the second time I said, "You already burned.", but he flipped the next card since he was in motion to do so. It was a K. I had AA and my opponent then exposed his cards to show KK. They backtracked, noticed I was right, and flipped the cards correctly. The guy with the K's had a tantrum, but everyone at the table knew that I'd said something before that K was exposed (and even before I knew what he was holding) and I was correct. Since then, the house rule is no one is allowed to hunt the rabbit on a live deck. EVER.
Posted Mon May 15, 2006 2:08 pm GMT by golddog
If I understand the post right, the two combatants were counting down to see who had whom covered?
An easy way to get around this, presuming that you can't, as Sean said, wait a little bit, is just to deal the hand out. Only the winner need count his stack, then the loser just needs to count that far (or to the end of their stack, if they're short).
Of course, lesson learned; the best way is not to hunt in a live deck. Just make a rule that you all won't do that any more, and life's good.
|
|
