Horrible Tournament Ending |
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Posted Tue May 16, 2006 9:40 am GMT by JRM4833
I can't believe how badly I played this hand. I just needed to get that out for starters. End of a 330 player MTT. There were about 20-25 players left and I was about 13th. The leader with $57,000 was at my table and I needed to make up some ground. But I wasn't as desperate as I acted in this hand.
Game #1474698373 - Tournament Hammock (NLH) - 600/1,200 No Limit Texas
Hold'em - 2006/05/15-13:20:40.0 (CST)
Table "Hammock 13" (MTT) -- Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: valk29 (9,320 in chips)
Seat 3: ryansavage (20,154 in chips)
Seat 4: luclongley (14,473 in chips)
Seat 5: JRM4833 (10,510 in chips)
Seat 6: passmynuts (12,577 in chips)
Seat 7: pikolo23 (57,736 in chips)
Seat 8: smok1forme (2,935 in chips)
Seat 10: onetraveller (44,593 in chips)
ryansavage: Ante (75)
luclongley: Ante (75)
JRM4833 : Ante (75)
passmynuts: Ante (75)
pikolo23: Ante (75)
smok1forme: Ante (75)
onetraveller: Ante (75)
valk29 : Ante (75)
luclongley: Post Small Blind (600)
JRM4833 : Post Big Blind (1,200)
Dealing...
Dealt to JRM4833 
Dealt to JRM4833 
passmynuts: Fold
pikolo23: Raise (3,000)
smok1forme: Fold
onetraveller: Fold
valk29 : Fold
ryansavage: Fold
luclongley: Fold
JRM4833 : Call (1,800)
*** FLOP *** :   
JRM4833 : Bet (2,400)
pikolo23: Raise (4,800)
JRM4833 : Call (2,400)
*** TURN *** : 
JRM4833 : Bet (2,635)
pikolo23: Call (2,635)
*** RIVER *** : 
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 22,070 | Board:
valk29 lost 75 (folded)
ryansavage lost 75 (folded)
luclongley lost 675 (folded)
JRM4833 lost 10,510 (showed hand) (high card ace)
passmynuts lost 75 (folded)
pikolo23 bet 10,510, collected 22,070, net +11,560 (showed hand) 
 (three of a kind, jacks)
smok1forme lost 75 (folded)
onetraveller lost 75 (folded)
So I think my biggest mistake was getting involved with the chip leader with a mediocre hand in the first place. With one opponent I figured my Q8 suited was just barely good enough to play against a small raise considering I had thrown in the BB and ante already. In this sense I walked right into it. When the two spades hit with a pretty safe looking flop, I took a stab at it. His raise should have tipped me off, but by then I was down to $5,000 or so. I guess I could have reraised then since it was inevitable if I called, but that wouldn't have done me any good (about another $2,500).
So was my biggest mistake really just playing the hand? Would you have thrown it away preflop? Should I have checked the flop? Folded to the raise? It was just an awful way to go out after playing very solid for over 2 hours and outlasting 300 people. Still made the money (40 ITM) but a disappointment nonetheless. Any criticism or advice would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Posted Tue May 16, 2006 10:06 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
You don't have enough chips to play these kinds of hands against a raise. If you're going to play it, either push preflop or open push the flop.
I would've folded this one preflop, waited for something a little better and then pooooooooshed.
Posted Tue May 16, 2006 10:27 am GMT by JRM4833
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | You don't have enough chips to play these kinds of hands against a raise. If you're going to play it, either push preflop or open push the flop.
I would've folded this one preflop, waited for something a little better and then pooooooooshed. |
Yeah ... that's pretty much what I keep coming back to. With 1,300 in the pot already I took a risk and threw in another 1,800 to see a flop. I was so upset with myself after that hand.
Posted Tue May 16, 2006 11:43 am GMT by red_pen
Sean_in_NJ's valid comments aside, I don't like the donk-bet
on the flop here.. at all.
My preference would be to check, and push over any continuation bet
that villian makes. if villain holds AK or AQ here you win more when you c/r ai and he folds than when you bet and he folds. if he checks behind so be it you get a free card. not at all a bad scenario for a flush draw. and if he doesn't fold, well that's fine as well. make a stand with some outs and 2 cards to come.
Posted Tue May 16, 2006 12:09 pm GMT by JRM4833
| red_pen wrote: | Sean_in_NJ's valid comments aside, I don't like the donk-bet
on the flop here.. at all.
My preference would be to check, and push over any continuation bet
that villian makes. if villain holds AK or AQ here you win more when you c/r ai and he folds than when you bet and he folds. if he checks behind so be it you get a free card. not at all a bad scenario for a flush draw. and if he doesn't fold, well that's fine as well. make a stand with some outs and 2 cards to come. |
Makes perfect sense. Obviously it wouldn't have made a difference here after he flopped a set, but theoretically I can see how this is the better play. I was basically looking at it as a good spot for a semi raise since I absolutely didn't see a raise coming back at me. That completely threw me off and I froze up basically.
Posted Tue May 16, 2006 1:34 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| red_pen wrote: | | My preference would be to check, and push over any continuation bet that villian makes. if villain holds AK or AQ here you win more when you c/r ai and he folds than when you bet and he folds. if he checks behind so be it you get a free card. |
What's your play if he checks behind and you whiff the turn? The reason I ask is because short of an all  flop or a couple of Q, this is about the best flop you can hope for with this hand. If you're going to make a move on the pot, I'd rather do it on the flop when I still have some reasonable equity; and I'd rather push first and get some fold equity mixed in there too (given the pot size and hero's stack, a C/R isn't giving us any fold equity at all).
When you're almost certainly behind, it's not the time to try to milk chips.
Posted Fri May 19, 2006 7:32 am GMT by red_pen
On second thoughts I think Sean_in_NJ is correct, and my post about the c/r is wrong - I didn't take sufficient notice of the pot's size relative to hero's stack.
But I might like to add that the fold equity here is unlikely to be as much as you'd hope. I can't put villian on a tight enough range here to think about it in strictly quantitative terms, but neither can I imagine villian folding any reasonable hand which warrants a raise pre-flop from UTG+1.
In these circumstances pushing the flop is a stop-and-go. These bets generally threaten a middling-pair. As the board shows J53 I don't think it contains enough middling-pair card types to convince villian it's not a bluff. And as such I think villian's call holding overcards or a medium pocket pair would be cEV correct.
To put it another way - if I am villian I call with AK and KQs (yikes!).
In answer your question about how I'd play a wiffed turn if villian checks behind - well that depends how if wiffs, and my read on villian, but I'd generally play as follows: A or K would induce a check/fold whatever villian bets. T, 9, or 7 would induce a push (more mid-pairs, fewer cards to come, better fold equity). 6,5,4,3, or 2 ... hmmm i'd check and expect villian to check behind. What i'd do if villian bets any of these cards depends.
Incidentally, how would you play the turn if you get a free card and the flush hits? Just curious.
Posted Fri May 19, 2006 8:38 am GMT by JRM4833
| red_pen wrote: | On second thoughts I think Sean_in_NJ is correct, and my post about the c/r is wrong - I didn't take sufficient notice of the pot's size relative to hero's stack.
But I might like to add that the fold equity here is unlikely to be as much as you'd hope. I can't put villian on a tight enough range here to think about it in strictly quantitative terms, but neither can I imagine villian folding any reasonable hand which warrants a raise pre-flop from UTG+1. |
In retrospect I certainly agree with Sean that I should have just gotten out from the start. He played it really well against me IMO considering the table. It was getting late and people were doing a good amount of blind stealing with raises to $$4,000 or $5,000 (villian's raise was only to $3,000) with non-premium hands. I saw it as getting decent odds to just see a flop and possibly try to steal it back from him if it was a scattered board and if he was sitting there with A-middle card. The board came out pretty decent for me with the one high card and a couple spades. Overall though, I don't mind my steal attempt nearly as much as I do getting in the hand in the first place. I think it was just me being defensive of my BB. IMO I have to chalk it up to plain old inexperience.
| Quote: | In these circumstances pushing the flop is a stop-and-go. These bets generally threaten a middling-pair. As the board shows J53 I don't think it contains enough middling-pair card types to convince villian it's not a bluff. And as such I think villian's call holding overcards or a medium pocket pair would be cEV correct.
To put it another way - if I am villian I call with AK and KQs (yikes!). |
If he's holding something like a small/middle pair or a jack, then at very least I'm not a huge underdog. Same goes for AK (although AQ is no good for me)I've still got the flush draw and an overcard myself. I can definitely see how villian could easily put me on a bluff/semi-bluff though. Thanks for the analysis.
Posted Fri May 19, 2006 12:51 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| red_pen wrote: | | Incidentally, how would you play the turn if you get a free card and the flush hits? Just curious. |
I'd lead the turn for about half pot. You have to try to get some chips in the middle now. I wouldn't want to have it checked behind again and then try to get chips on the river in a smaller pot.
Posted Fri May 19, 2006 1:57 pm GMT by kompis
Well post flop your pretty much never gonna get away from this hand. You put him on a middling hand that has probably missed the board and u called with Q8s and flopped your flush draw with a nice bluffers flop, go all in would be my move here, best fold equity and it also takes away any difficult decisions should the turn card come blank. However I too have found myself in these situations and its all part of the learning curve. Dont get mixed up in these situations with people who have significantly more chips than you. Hopefully u learned a valuable lesson from the hand and that next time you wont be the same
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