Marginal flop decision, FL |
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Posted Mon May 22, 2006 7:43 pm GMT by tame_deuces
The games is live fourhanded FL, low stakes. Assume the flow of the game is quite loose and aggressive and that all players know pretty well how to adjust starting hands to a shorthanded game.
Villain is on the button. Villain is somewhat loose and stuck about 20-30BBs, minor tilt maybe.
Hero is in the BB with: K Q
Fold, Button Calls, SB completes, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls.
Flop: 2 9 A
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB folds, Hero...?
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Posted Mon May 22, 2006 10:50 pm GMT by TxShadow
I don't think folding here would be incorrect. I might call the small bet here and c/f unimproved on the turn though.
Posted Tue May 23, 2006 1:36 am GMT by Phil14312
Re-raise and lead out the turn. He probably wants to know if you have something like TT, JJ, QQ, or KK. He didn't raise from the button in a 4-handed game, I probably open-raise from the button 90% of the time 4-handed with any ace. I think he's messing with you. He wants to know where he stands, well tell him by 3-betting the flop and leading the turn. Now if he caps it, maybe you can check/fold turn without help. If I pair up I'm calling down though. I think he's got something like J9 or 9T.
Posted Tue May 23, 2006 2:56 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| Phil14312 wrote: | | Re-raise and lead out the turn. He probably wants to know if you have something like TT, JJ, QQ, or KK. He didn't raise from the button in a 4-handed game, I probably open-raise from the button 90% of the time 4-handed with any ace. I think he's messing with you. He wants to know where he stands, well tell him by 3-betting the flop and leading the turn. Now if he caps it, maybe you can check/fold turn without help. If I pair up I'm calling down though. I think he's got something like J9 or 9T. |
Ditto, although I might dump the hand if he re-raises and then bets again on 4th street.
Posted Tue May 23, 2006 12:00 pm GMT by TxShadow
That's frustrating; the two options that I thought wouldn't be incorrect are everything but what you guys are saying to do. 
Maybe there's something I'm just not getting.
I know folding or calling and check/folding on the turn UI looks weak, but I assumed that we're usually behind here and that flop didn't really give us a lot of love.
Posted Tue May 23, 2006 12:48 pm GMT by Dave B
fold
Posted Tue May 23, 2006 1:02 pm GMT by flafishy
I'm with Dave. I don't see any point in continuing here.
Posted Tue May 23, 2006 1:42 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
I call and peel one more to see if I can pick up a draw.
Posted Wed May 24, 2006 1:08 am GMT by Phil14312
If he had an ace why wouldn't he raise preflop?
Posted Wed May 24, 2006 12:13 pm GMT by TxShadow
| Phil14312 wrote: | | If he had an ace why wouldn't he raise preflop? |
I could see a weak ace, especially a weak suited ace calling the blind and then calling for one more bet preflop.
He could definately be seeing where he stands, but he also could have played 99 or 22 this way. 89s, 9Ts, Ax, K9s, maybe even Q9s or J9s especially if he's tilting a bit are possible holdings as well. Granted, villain might toss some of the latter hands as well as some others that have us beat to a reraise here (hell, I think a lot of them are even pretty unlikely), I don't think this is a prime spot to be proceeding.
We've got a backdoor draw and our K and Q might not even be live. Just about the only card I'd be comfortable seeing on the turn would be a diamond (assuming he did call our reraise, and I don't think villain is folding here very often).
Posted Wed May 24, 2006 12:29 pm GMT by TxShadow
So tame, you gonna tell us how this turned out or what? 
Posted Wed May 24, 2006 12:39 pm GMT by Phil14312
I don't know about you, but in a 4-handed FL Hold'em game, I am raising 90% of the time with just about any ace. Now I'm not villain, but I don't think this is too unusual a play if you've had any experience playing short-handed FL, which is why I think he is making a play with a 9.
Posted Wed May 24, 2006 1:21 pm GMT by Dave B
So, if you think he is making a move w/ a 9, you are still a BIG dog. Do you really want to commit a 2-3 more big bets (reraise, bet out and bet river) on the outside chance that you catch something?
Furthermore, what if he has K9 Q9, then if you catch and still dont believe that he has an ace, then you lose 3-4 big bets.
Sometimes I dont care if I am ahead and get bluffed, it just isnt worth trying to win every pot. If you make the other guy "assume" that he can run over you, you are in a better position to take big pot from him when you do have a hand.
Posted Thu May 25, 2006 12:37 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| TxShadow wrote: | | So tame, you gonna tell us how this turned out or what? |
Actually, for this hand I think the discussion is better if we leave the results out of it. 
Thanks for the input all, this was a interesting hand. This discussion was basically what I was wondering if would come up when I posted the hand. For me this was a standard decision made somewhat more difficult when we look at what happened preflop.
Posted Thu May 25, 2006 4:25 pm GMT by Phil14312
| Dave B wrote: | So, if you think he is making a move w/ a 9, you are still a BIG dog. Do you really want to commit a 2-3 more big bets (reraise, bet out and bet river) on the outside chance that you catch something?
Furthermore, what if he has K9 Q9, then if you catch and still dont believe that he has an ace, then you lose 3-4 big bets.
Sometimes I dont care if I am ahead and get bluffed, it just isnt worth trying to win every pot. If you make the other guy "assume" that he can run over you, you are in a better position to take big pot from him when you do have a hand. |
Fold equity? I guess I'm assuming a higher fold equity than you are. But arguing that is really player dependent. Would he fold an unimproved 9 here if you raised preflop out of the blind, re-raised and lead the turn? If no, then of course you should fold, if he might...then you can try and get him out of the hand. How you play it depends on the ability/willingness of an opponent to fold a pair thats not an ace.
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