Posted Sun May 28, 2006 9:42 pm GMT by BrianGre
We had an incident come up at my latest home game and I want to get opinions from the rest of you as to how you would have handled it..
The positions and blinds aren't important to the situation at hand...
We have one player all-in and is the chip leader.
There are 2 players yet to act... the first of the two says, "I raise..." <insert pause for effect> "... my cards to fold"...
the second player to act gets quite upset that the previous player should be made to put all his chips in the pot...
Now... I know the player who made this dramatic play for effect and I know that he had no intention of calling the bet... his argument was that he could not actually raise as it was more than what he had in front of him.
So how do you call this if you are the host?
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Posted Sun May 28, 2006 9:59 pm GMT by supafrey
He's all in.
Posted Sun May 28, 2006 10:12 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
I know that technically if a player says raise he must follow through with it, but it's just a home game you're playing. For this particular situation I wouldn't worry about it. The player who got angry needs to lighten up IMO. If however, when player 1 says raise, player 2 begins to make a move (or do something in reaction to player 1) and THEN player 1 says fold, I could understand why P2 would be slightly irritated.
If this was an official event or tournament, obviously official rules prevail, but at friendly home games, these situations should be taken lightly- afterall it is just a game.
Posted Sun May 28, 2006 10:20 pm GMT by JackKingOff
i personally think he shoulda had to have his chips all in
Posted Sun May 28, 2006 10:48 pm GMT by Icec0o1
If he had absolutely no intention to call then you should let him slide. If he has A9 and gauged a reaction from the player behind him, then he should be put all in.
It's a home game for I imagine low stakes. Things should be taken lightly so people can have fun because that's what the game is all about right? I doubt people go there to make money.
Posted Mon May 29, 2006 4:21 am GMT by JohnnyCache
Someone says "I bet two cards" or some varient of it at least once a game. It's lame. It's real lame. It's like saying you have "pocket Rockets"
But it's also a little lame to get worked up over if you aren't on the WPT.
Posted Mon May 29, 2006 8:30 am GMT by BrianGre
I completely agree about the not getting worked up about it part... however... the whole time we've playing our home games we've been very serious about playing by the generally accepted rules... string betting... verbal binding...etc...
the player that made this move has been one of the worst...not a bad person, but we call him the Blind Nazi... :D
anyway, I told him --out of earshot from player 2-- had the game been at my house or I was the host; his chips would have been in...
thanks for the 2 cents from each of you...
Posted Mon May 29, 2006 8:32 am GMT by JohnnyCache
You could either make a miss-call policy (ie a retracted call or string bet pays an extra blind)
or use the incident to set a permanent policy at the start of the next game.
Posted Mon May 29, 2006 9:08 am GMT by Lethargic Dolt
Our general rule is that "new" players get a little slack on something like that (still have some that want to do one thing and call it something else).
Any of our regulars even in home game, would probably have made him bring em "all-in". One of the things we try to do is follow all the rules and make players aware of the rules.
We had a "new" player yesterday put a $500 chip in to call a $200 bet. He did not have any $100 chips and he got angry when we made it a call rather than a raise. He did not make any verbal declaration for a raise. Once we explained to him that a non-declared raise with a larger chip is considered a call, he understood and was appreciative for the information.
The only way to learn to play in a real tournament is by doing it right in the home game.
RULE POSTING (for my example)
"If you put a single chip in the pot that is larger than the bet, but do not announce a raise, you are assumed to have only called. Example: In a $3-$6 game, when a player bets $6 and the next player puts a $25 chip in the pot without saying anything, that player has merely called the $6 bet."/u
Posted Mon May 29, 2006 11:41 am GMT by Geno
It's a tricky one. There was a dubious Mike The Mouth moment in last year's WSOP ME where he grabbed a whole stack of chips ready to call someone's all-in, swung them way out over 'the line' to gauge a reaction and then added them back to his chip stack and folded. Arguably, he should have been made to call as it was such an exaggerated action but they let it slide.
Set a home game rule and use it from now on. Job done.
Posted Mon May 29, 2006 1:49 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Even in laidback homegames I don't see a big problem being somewhat strict on table rules. As soon as people are used to them the action will flow very smoothly and I have never seen it interfere with the 'mood' of the game...rather the other way around, with clear rules there isn't room for silly arguments among player and time can be spent on table banter, playing cards, having fun or drinking booze or whatever people wants to do.
In my homegame I'm usually strict on: No stringbetting, no messing with the deck, show one/show all rule of cards, no slowrolling, holecards stay on the table and that you are always held to the first action you signal..if the BB mucks his cards in an unraised pot, they are mucked...if he is a new player this is the best way to teach him not to do it again. 
I've played in plenty different homegames, and if you ask me the best atmosphere is always found in those that follow some good guidelines from the start. Nothing is more infuriating than a homegame where everyone is used to do all kinds of rude crap and people are so used to it that a protest/request always meets 'deaf' ears.
Posted Mon May 29, 2006 3:59 pm GMT by Johny
| Lethargic Dolt wrote: | We had a "new" player yesterday put a $500 chip in to call a $200 bet. He did not have any $100 chips and he got angry when we made it a call rather than a raise. He did not make any verbal declaration for a raise. Once we explained to him that a non-declared raise with a larger chip is considered a call, he understood and was appreciative for the information.
The only way to learn to play in a real tournament is by doing it right in the home game.
RULE POSTING (for my example)
"If you put a single chip in the pot that is larger than the bet, but do not announce a raise, you are assumed to have only called. Example: In a $3-$6 game, when a player bets $6 and the next player puts a $25 chip in the pot without saying anything, that player has merely called the $6 bet."/u |
That seems very weird to me, I've never seen that rule. In my home games you don't have to announce a raise there, it seems dumb to me otherwise.
Posted Mon May 29, 2006 4:10 pm GMT by BrianGre
There seem to be two schools of thought with the "single chip call/raise" rule...
one school says that you must declare a raise, while the other must declare a call..
in our games we are of the "declare a raise" school... I guess it's just what you were exposed to first and what you prefer..
of course it's always safest simply to declare your actions then no matter what you put out doesn't matter.. 
Posted Mon May 29, 2006 4:14 pm GMT by Johny
I guess it just depends on what you learned first.
Is that a casino rule though?
Posted Mon May 29, 2006 4:24 pm GMT by Dave B
If the player behind him has not yet acted, then he should be able to fold.
I see this as similar to calling in limit one bet, but not seeing that there is a raise before you. If a player has not acted behind you before the dealer catches your error, then you can fold and take your chips back. If someone has called or mucked behind you, the chips that you put are in the pot and you can call or fold.
Posted Mon May 29, 2006 7:16 pm GMT by Lethargic Dolt
That is the way it is handled in "limit" game and "no-limit" tourneys at our local casino (before it was destroyed by Katrina). We enforced that because there were two players behind him and he did not say he wanted it to be a raise until the first player after him called for $200.
We also discuss before each tournament whether you are a "new" player or not to announce your bet. Obviously, this is the best way to preclude any problems.
Posted Tue May 30, 2006 5:36 am GMT by JohnnyCache
Yeah, most cardrooms I've played at, the assumption is a big chip wants change unless you say otherwise.
Posted Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:31 pm GMT by BeerWench13
| JohnnyCache wrote: | | most cardrooms I've played at, the assumption is a big chip wants change unless you say otherwise. |
This has been my experience as well. A drunk guy kept trying to raise preflop this way this past weekend and the dealer kept saying "Call $2. Your turn." to the next guy. The drunk guy kept saying he was raising and the dealer kept telling him he had to declare it if he only throws one chip in the pot. The drunk finally gave up because he couldn't seem to grasp the concept and started raising to $10 or $15 to be sure he got to raise.
To the OP, this is a tough situation. The pause would cause me to think that he was saying this to get a read on the player to act behind him and I would say he's all-in. Verbal bets are binding. He said "raise", so he must put his chips in the pot. I'm a rule nazi. If you're playing with me, even at a friendly home game, the rules still apply. There is nothing more frustrating to me than an unorganized free-for-all home game with players acting out of turn and talking openly on the flop about the full house they mucked when there are still players in the hand. Now, if everyone was drunk and it was late, then I say you could maybe let it slide, but in a normal game, especially a tournament, I'd make him commit his chips.
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