Posted Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:45 pm GMT by aveagojo
I have been reading a beginners' book on Poker (Texas Hold'em Poker: Begin and Win by Paul Mendelson). He lists what he says are 21 good starting hands. The top four of these are AA, KK, QQ and AK. The next three he gives are JJ 1010 and AQ suited. However, when I used this site's Texas Hold'em Poker Odds Calculator and put AK up against any hole cards pair (even 22) in a two hand game, it showed that the hole cards pair had a greater chance than AK of winning the game. I'm now puzzled. Can anyone help please?
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Posted Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:55 pm GMT by supafrey
Most games aren't two handed.
Posted Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:57 pm GMT by aveagojo
Ok, thanks supafrey - I actually thought that that might be why, but wasn't sure. But, thinking about it, I can see now that although 22 has the edge in a two-handed game, in a ten-handed one AK would have the better chance of winning.
Posted Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:38 am GMT by Jefecaminador
Basically its because you're playing your hand against the range of all possible other hands. AK vs anything pocket pair less than AA or KK is almost 50-50, with AK being a slight underdog. Versus any other starting hand, AK is at a significant advantage, if not a dominating one, like when your opponenet has Ax or Kx.
If you look at the small pocket pairs though, like 22. At best you're going to be about 50/50 to win the pot, since your opponent will have 2 over cards. What is also a possibility is you being dominated by an over pair. 22 will lose to 33 over 80% of the time.
So what it boils down to is that with small pocket pairs you are usually about 50% to win at BEST, with a chance of being dominated, while with AK you are about 50% to win at WORST (except against KK or AA which are small possibilities )with a very good chance of being far ahead or dominating.
Posted Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:33 am GMT by supafrey
| aveagojo wrote: | | Ok, thanks supafrey - I actually thought that that might be why, but wasn't sure. But, thinking about it, I can see now that although 22 has the edge in a two-handed game, in a ten-handed one AK would have the better chance of winning. |
Bingo.
Posted Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:52 pm GMT by aveagojo
Thanks for your reply Jefecaminador. You're applying your analysis to just a two-handed game, I think.
My purpose in using the Odds Calculator on this site was to try to determine which are the top hole cards to hold in a ten (or eleven)-handed game but I can't figure out how to do this because, it seems to me, that you have to allocate hands for all of the ten (or eleven) hands at the table, whereas what I want to do is just allocate cards for one hand, for example AA, and then calculate the odds of that hand winning the game against the other nine (or ten) unseen hands at the table. In this way I would be able to rank the top hands in a ten (or eleven)-handed game.
Or do you know if there exists a list somewhere of the top hands in such a game?
Posted Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:06 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
A program called PokerStove where you can download for free across the net may assist your inquiry.
Posted Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:37 pm GMT by crack
There's no need to do this when it has all been done for you, hence, starting hand charts. Just google starting hands chart 10 handed poker and it will give you the list.
Middlesbrough, small world, I live in Saltburn. Welcome. 
Posted Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:07 pm GMT by aveagojo
Thanks crack and LeafsFan.
crack, I tried using google and you're right it does give hold'em starting hands but in variously complicated configurations and charts. I couldn't find any one that just gave a simple chart showing the best starting hands for a ten handed game in order of rank. They all added complications such as position, tight or loose play etc. I think I can suss those things out for myself once I have the basic ranking of hands.
I have a pal who lives in Loftus so I often drive through Saltburn and I've known it all my life even from holidaying there with my parents as a kid! Not many casinos there though!
Posted Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:28 pm GMT by crack
The reason there are a lot of different ones is because there are so many different situations. A cahs game or a tournament. A game with lots of people playing bad hands or just the best and so on.
Ths looks worth a read
http://www.mypokermatch.com/poker-Texas-Hold-em-Basic-Strategies/Texas-Hold-em-Starting-Hands-74
Thats the prob with Saltburn, I just wish there was a home game around the area that I could stumble upon . 
Posted Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:48 am GMT by 72o
There are almost no starting hands that can win by itself. Maybe big pocket pairs but thats it. You shouldnt expect too much from AK.
The good thing about AK is that you definitely got the overpair when you hit the flop. Otherwise throw it away like 72o  Many players loose much more money with big starting hands than they win with them because they aren't able to fold it.
PS: If you play AK and hit the flop you can almost be sure to win heads-on. And if you your opponent doesn't hit the flop either you win with Ace high. If you play 22 you never know if you have won until you hit a set. AK has a significant psycological advantage over 22. And if you are in a multiway pot you have to expect that somebody hit the flop. In that case 22 is always behind.
Posted Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:40 am GMT by tame_deuces
| 72o wrote: |
The good thing about AK is that you definitely got the overpair when you hit the flop. Otherwise throw it away like 72o Many players loose much more money with big starting hands than they win with them because they aren't able to fold it.
|
Sound advice, but there are exceptions. In severe shorthanded games AK will have showdown value, also in NL and with position you should sometimes attempt to get a cheap showdown. + in these games it is also very likely to have outs. Showdown value + outs = Ok hand.
And maybe most importantly, when you hold AK you do have leverage. You have raised preflop and represented strength and you can use that leverage to represent a stronger hand than a missed AK. This isn't something we do all the time, but we can get away with it quite easily against a player who takes 2 seconds to think about what we are holding (this excludes many).
If we grow meek every time we miss a flop, that's a big flaw that other players can exploit.
And in limit it will sometimes be correct to take an unimproved AK to the river, for example in some aggressive head's up blind battle situations.
Posted Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:01 am GMT by 72o
I agree. I just didn't want to make it too complicated for a beginner. That's why I concentrated on the most basic fact about big hands a beginner has to learn.
Posted Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:10 am GMT by Jefecaminador
It would also be prudent to note that pocket pairs are relatively rare. You have about a 1 in 220 chance to catch a specific pp like AA, or 1 in 17 to have any pocket pair. With 9 other ppl at the table that means about half the time you're hand is best before the flop. And considering most ppl wont play small pocket pairs vs a big raise, you can see why AK is a damn good hand.
Posted Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:34 pm GMT by aveagojo
Thanks guys - a lot of food for thought there!
Thanks for yours, crack. Will let you know if I hear of any home games in the area.
Posted Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:39 pm GMT by crack
Cheers, send me an email if you hear anything.
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