Focusing on expanding my game! |
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Posted Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:20 am GMT by jimmer
Due to personal reasons, I play far less poker at the mo, than I would of liked. I suppose most of us don‘t play as much as we would of wanted, but it really is limited-for example, last week I managed to play 4 hours-the week before-3!(This includes watching tables and waiting for seats to become available.)
Therefore for my 100'th post I thought I would review the way I play poker.
So where do I begin? I'm 30 years old and have been gambling for around 15 years. Having said that, I only discovered poker about 4 years ago. As I'm sure you'll all agree, its a great game and one I want to play for many years to come.
I would describe my style as tight aggressive. I feel I am very disciplined and this is reflected in the games I choose. For example; I never play the cards-only the players. I am the only person I know who spends time analysing players and looking for weaknesses BEFORE I sit at the table. This cause’s me problems, as I often work out a weakness, but am called away and never get chance to “complete my mission”. Another example would be the cards I play. When playing cash games, if there is an ultra tight player at the table and he raises, even if I have pocket Aces I fold! I’ve had many discussions with my mates about this principle and if I was coaching someone else I wouldn’t encourage this, but it’s how I play and to a certain degree is my weakness.
Having said this, it works. Four years ago I invested $30 and last month I hit $23,100.
However the key thing is this-I’m a long way from where I want to be. Once again I guess all you guys think this, but for me it really is the case. On a scale of 1-100, I’d put myself on a 6, maybe a 10. The problem is I’m crap at torny’s and I think the reason is because I can’t choose who I play. Yes I can see the tight players from the loose ones, I make notes on how much they raise and when, I know when to bet and raise, I can work out pot odds and I can steel blinds if and when needed. I think the main reason is because I’m in my comfort zone. Whenever I enter a competition and fail to hit the money I just find a cash table and win it back.
Therefore I have decided to take myself out of my comfort zone and jump in at the deep end. I’m either gonna sink or swim! I’ve taken $22,900 from my account and booked a holiday to Egypt for me and my wife. That leaves me with $200 to now play with. I’ve decided to start off on the 10 seater $2 SNG’s and I will build it up from there.
If I can conquer the $2, $5, $10, $20 & $50 SNG tables then I should be able to grade myself as a 25-30’ish. I will also then start entering larger torny’s-first with cheap entry fees, which will obviously then progress to the higher stakes.
I also want to record my play on a game-to-game basis. At present I only review my game as an individual hand, or complete product. I never assess sessions. By taking notes hour-by hour, game-by-game, I will hopefully focus and/or question the way I play. I also want to get a cheap website and coach low stakes-micro stakes poker. My mates are always asking for help and advice and since I started at this level, I think this will make me question my own play, which will in turn, improve my game.
What do you guys think. Do you have any other tips???
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:07 am GMT by zinn0
Good post.
| Quote: | | When playing cash games, if there is an ultra tight player at the table and he raises, even if I have pocket Aces I fold! |
I agree that "tight is right", but this statement is kind of silly, and if it's true, you're leaving money on the table.
I think it's awesome that your taking the missus on an extravagant trip. I think it's even cooler that it's being done with poker money.
If you're looking for a good session review tool, I'd like to recommend PokerTracker. I downloaded the trial version some time ago and finally purchased the registration code about a week ago. It's helped me a lot.
Posted Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:26 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Dang dude. I think it's great you can play well enough at cash games to do that well. What a great way to spend your winnings too. Keep that tight is right theory when you get into the SNGs and you should far well. Maybe not to the extreme of mucking AA,KK or AK but to the point where you only play the top 10 starting hands in any position and lessen it up as you obtain position.
Posted Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:30 pm GMT by Icec0o1
This is a huge mistake in my book. If you're playing against a tight player, then play agressive against him, not tighter! If he's willing to get bluffed, then bluff him! Reraises work great against tight players as they think that shows tremendous strength.
Posted Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:42 pm GMT by zeroswarm
I don't understand this "folding AA" thing....
Surely the correct play is to reraise...?
Or at least call. After all you do hold the best possible starting hand in the game. What are you afraid of?
Do you think "Oh my God, he's a tight player, he's probably got a big hand like KK...?" 
Well, that means your chances are even better than if he was holding something like 76 suited...
Posted Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:56 pm GMT by jimmer
| zeroswarm wrote: | I don't understand this "folding AA" thing....
Surely the correct play is to reraise...? |
Ok, let me explain. The principle of of playing cash games is to make more money than the other players AND THEN not lose it.
To put yourself in that position, you need to be able to do two things. 1. win money 2. not lose it. Now lots of players can win money. They will then do one of three things-
A. get up and leave the table,
B. stay and play a bit looser,
C. or tighten up and wait for a top premium hand.
Some players are automatically programmed to play really tight, others play really tight after they won some money. Either way they will fold 99% of the time and only play hands such as AA, KK or AK suited. These players only make money, because somebody on the table (for one reason or another), thinks their pocket three's or their King-Ten suited is a good hand. Therefore when the tight player plays a hand-you know it's gonna be good.
In truth, the weak players are just feeding the tight players. Slowly but surely, the tight player will win, and the weaker players lose. The tight players can only make money, if someone else is willing to pay them off. That person IS NOT ME. Let them feed from some other sucker.
The truth is Yes, I would normally raise/re-reise with pocket Aces, but not against a really tight player (In actual fact i'd raise with 7-2 off suit against passive players!), but that's neither here-or-there.
The key factor is you must play to your strength's and everyone elses weakness. You may have pocket Aces, but i'd rather take a few dollars off a weaker player with pocket fours, than lose anything to a tight player. A tight players game my be succesful, but it's limited. They play only the best hands, and then sit tight. If everyone closed the hatches when they played, the tight players wouldn't make money. They would then have to loosen up. However they never do loosen up, because there are too many players out there who are willing to feed them.
Posted Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:23 pm GMT by supafrey
wait. i was sitting here assuming you meant that you'd fold the AA easily post flop to tight players..... I thought everyone was mistaking your post to mean preflop.
they were right? errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........
Posted Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:28 pm GMT by Johny
Are we seriously talking about folding AA pre-flop?
Posted Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:49 pm GMT by zinn0
I really think we are...crazy, eh?
Posted Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:09 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
Posted Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:10 pm GMT by supafrey
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. |
why would i want to throw my money away, sean?!
Posted Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:37 pm GMT by Cheech3398
I also dont understand your choice to evaporate your bankroll. Taking your wife on vacation is awesome...especially to Egypt...and especially on poker winnings. But why would you consciously remove 23 thousand from a bankroll of 23,200!? It took you four years to turn 30 bucks into 23 grand and now you're right back where your started, in the micros.
Do yourself a favor and leave 20,000 for poker. Go to Florida or something, or at least continue playing at higher stakes until a 23,000 vacation is reasonable.
Posted Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:40 pm GMT by Johny
Why would a vacation to Egypt cost 23k?
Posted Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:53 pm GMT by age_of_sages
You make no sense. When you have AA the tight player is feeding you, not the other way around, it's impossible for him to have a better hand.
I don't understand why this discussion exists.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:46 am GMT by jimmer
| age_of_sages wrote: | | You make no sense. When you have AA the tight player is feeding you, not the other way around, it's impossible for him to have a better hand. |
He could have 6 3 off-suit before i care. The fact is if the flop is 663, he gets lucky and i lose money.
If i deprive him of his fuel, he's going no where.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:57 am GMT by Jefecaminador
Yeah i'm a bit confused as well, it may make sense to fold KK to a very tight player but AA? And also, if you rate your poker game so poorly and want to get better, why cripple yourself by removing almost your entire bankroll. The only way to truely get better is to play, and to play against good opponents. Beating the micros doesnt make you a good player, and niether do beating 2$ sng's.
Im not saying speding 23k on a vacation is bad, you're free to spend your money how you see fit, im just saying that if one of your goals is to become a damn good poker player, you need a bankroll to do it. And if it takes you another 2-3 years to get back up to 23k, then shit, you're in your mid thirties now and might as well kill yourself. (just kidding). But seriously, we always talk about how poker is a "long run" game. The reality is, we're not on this earth for very long, usually 70-80 years, and when you get older you dont perform as well as you did in youth. And if you really really want to be good, like world class calibre, then hamstringing your bank roll at this point is going to severly hurt your chances of doing that.
But if poker is just a hobby that you happen to be good at, and you want to make it a challenge to build your roll back up, then thats ok too.
Whatever it is you want to do, gl. Just don't fold AA preflop to a tight player!!!
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:59 am GMT by Jefecaminador
| jimmer wrote: | | age_of_sages wrote: | | You make no sense. When you have AA the tight player is feeding you, not the other way around, it's impossible for him to have a better hand. |
He could have 6 3 off-suit before i care. The fact is if the flop is 663, he gets lucky and i lose money.
If i deprive him of his fuel, he's going no where. |
or more likely, he doesnt get lucky, and you take a big chunk of his bank roll, possibly causing him to quit poker altogether. Accomplishing your goal of tight player extermination.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:16 am GMT by groton
only time to fold AA is fist hand of WSOP
or at my Weekly TuesdayNight/Wed Morning game 
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:30 am GMT by BeerWench13
It's good to see that you're looking to improve your game. I must agree with the others that I'm not going to fold AA preflop to anyone. I have laid them down postflop in the past and saved a good deal of money, but more likely, you're up against at best KK, QQ, or AK and you're a favorite. Don't let tight players scare you.
I get this kind of respect in the weekly games I play and will move in with just about anything on occasion just to take down the blinds or one player's preflop raise. I did this last week with 92o. I'm the tightest player I know, but I mix it up too. So do others. You're giving them way too much respect. Besides, you obviously have the best hand. Why would you ever fold the best hand preflop?
Tournament play is much different than cash play. You have to get more involved. Due to the blind raises, you can't afford to sit and wait for monsters to play a hand. You have to make moves and be aggressive or the blinds will kill your stack and you'll be forced to move in with such a short stack that you're bound to get one or more callers and possibly lose it all even if you have the best hand preflop. It's tough for a tight/aggressive player in tournament play. Some will say to stay tight, but I disagree. TAG is my style as well, but in tournament play, I have to loosen up a bit, play my position, bully the short stacks, steal blinds and come over the top without having the nuts.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:22 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Folding aces preflop loses you money. What's even worse is that a tight player most likely has a good hand when he is involved, that means he may very well pay you off on a big preflop re-raise.
If you get a big portion of your stack in with aces preflop, then it doesn't matter if he has TT and the flop comes 37T , the amount he had to invest preflop will not justify what he earns after the flop, and your over-all play will not be a losing one in the long-term. Folding aces on the other hand - will be.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:44 pm GMT by jimmer
Can i just clear up a few things!
Picture the scene; I'm sat on a $5-$10 ten seater no limit cash table.
I've been sat at this tables 6hours 22minutes. All the other players have only been at the table a short time (90minutes'ish max), except one guy who's been sat at the table with me for about 5hours. He is also playing on another table. Within the whole time he's sat at the table, he's played six hands. He won four of them before the showdown, and showed pocket QQ's and AK suited on the others. In my opinion HE'S TIGHT!
Over the course of 6hours 22 minutes, when he's been the big blind, i've raised him about 40-50 times. Every time he folds. By my calculations, he's $200 down in total. I've also calculated i've taken $380-$500 FROM HIM, by stealing the big blinds. I'm total $1040 up.
I then get dealt pocket Aces. He's in early position and raises $300. (stupid amount i know). I fold, so does everyone else, he win $15.
Over the following 45 minutes, when he's on the big blind, I raise him 4 times. He folds three of them and calls my 8 6 off-suit on the forth. The flop comes QT2. He checks, I bet the pot, he folds. He then leaves the table.
Over the course of my poker career, i have folded pocket aces about three times pre-flop. Every other time i've bet big.
I've been playing poker long enough to know pocket aces are a good STARTING hand. I'm not naive enough to think it means an automatic pay day.
On a side note, the question was asked about the cost of our holiday. Both my wife and I have our own businesses. The total cost of the holiday, for us both to go, has to include the money i will lose, by closing for two weeks, and also the management consultants, my wife has to pay to oversee her business.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:52 pm GMT by Johny
That made no sense at all.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:54 pm GMT by zinn0
| supafrey wrote: | | My head hurts. |
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:08 pm GMT by supafrey
If I quote Zinno, does that count as quoting myself? Because I really want to.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:38 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| zinn0 wrote: | | supafrey wrote: | | My head hurts. |
|
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:40 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| jimmer wrote: | | I've been playing poker long enough to know pocket aces are a good STARTING hand. I'm not naive enough to think it means an automatic pay day. |
The way you play them, it's a guaranteed non-payday.
Simply awful, sir. No other way to describe it.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:58 pm GMT by golddog
No kidding. Let's say you have AA and tight player puts in $300, per your example.
Let's further say his distribution of hands is evenly split between AA, KK, QQ, AK. (I know AK is more likely, I just don't want to figure it out.
Hell, I'll even give him the other two suits for four-flush possibilities and suited AK.
AA vs AA - split - no loss/win
AA vs KK - you win 81% ($243), he wins 19% (-$57), net gain $186
AA vs QQ - you win 80.5% ($241.50), he wins 19.86% (-$56.88), net gain $186.42
AA vs AK - you win 87.23% ($261.69), he wins 11.51% (-$34.53), net gain $227.16
Folding strategy : -$15 every time.
So we see it only takes about 10 trials to get to the point where you're losing as much by folding every time, and the odds clearly dictate you won't lose all twelve of those trials.
The thing to do is use both worlds. If he lets you, raise him off whenever you can. When he raises, fold almost every time, but if you have AA, you can't be any worse than break-even.
Now, post-flop, of course you need to fold rockets. But here, I can't get my chips in the middle fast enough. If he's so tight, he'll fold QQ/AK to an all-in re-raise anyway.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:53 pm GMT by jimmer
I knew the "pocket Aces issue" would cause a lot of objections.
But I spend more time playinf the players, not the cards. I'm happy with my player analysis and agree I'm potentially losing money.
However i'd rather play 7 2 off suit against a weak player then AA against an ultra tight one.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:57 pm GMT by Johny
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | zinn0 wrote: | | supafrey wrote: | | My head hurts. |
|
|
Why would you rather have a weak hand versus a tight player, who has shown strenght?
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:42 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| jimmer wrote: | | But I spend more time playinf the players, not the cards. I'm happy with my player analysis and agree I'm potentially losing money. |
There's nothing "potential" about it. You are, without a doubt, undeniably, unequivocally, losing money.
| jimmer wrote: | | However i'd rather play 7 2 off suit against a weak player then AA against an ultra tight one. |
Then this is not your game.
I have to believe this entire thread is a joke. There's no way anyone could possibly think the things you're putting forth are good ideas.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:10 pm GMT by Cheech3398
| jimmer wrote: |
But I spend more time playinf the players, not the cards. ...
However i'd rather play 7 2 off suit against a weak player then AA against an ultra tight one. |
That is so so wrong. Youre playing yourself
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:24 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| jimmer wrote: |
But I spend more time playinf the players, not the cards. I'm happy with my player analysis and agree I'm potentially losing money.
However i'd rather play 7 2 off suit against a weak player then AA against an ultra tight one. |
You're not a good Poker player if you really believe this.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:28 pm GMT by Cheech3398
How did you build a 23k roll again?
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:49 pm GMT by age_of_sages
I agree with everyone else here, you are totally losing money. You're $23k roll had to come from something besides poker because I can't even fathom your thinking.
Posted Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:15 am GMT by BeerWench13
| jimmer wrote: | | Within the whole time he's sat at the table, he's played six hands. He won four of them before the showdown, and showed pocket QQ's and AK suited on the others. In my opinion HE'S TIGHT! |
I'm a tight player as well. People I play hate it when most of the money on the table is in my stack because they know that, unless they get a monster and I get a 2nd best monster, they're not going to be able to get any of that money. Let me repeat that, unless they get a monster and I get a 2nd best monster, they're not going to be able to get any of that money.
Now, wouldn't it make sense that if my KK runs into AA (and I don't get lucky) they get a good portion of my stack back into play? Pocket A's is the absolute best starting hand. It has the potential to relieve another player, tight or otherwise, of a good portion of their stack. The only way you're getting this tight player's money is to move in with a monster when he has 2nd best and hope it holds up. I'm not saying go to the felt with them, but you should definitely re-raise. If they're that tight, they may fold, and, in your scenario, instead of making nothing, you just made $300 off of him preflop. If he calls, you have the potential to take a good portion of his stack. This is the only way you're getting any of it.
Tight players, especially those as you described in your scenario, play "four corners" poker. They're sitting on the ball waiting for the clock to run out or the perfect opening for them to score. If he's sitting on KK, he thinks this is his opportunity. It should profit you with your AA, not him with an inferior hand. And, no matter what he's holding other than AA, he has an inferior hand.
Posted Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:33 pm GMT by jimmer
I totally agree with 99.9% of what all you guys are saying.
Throwing away pocket Aces preflop is a bad decision. That's why I have only done so in extreme circumstances.
During tornys, inless your're
A. near the bubble or
B. chip leader(and in the money, where you can wait for the other players to knock each other out),
No matter what the situation, this is a raise/re-raise.
In cash games the situation is different. The point is; preflop, i have the best hand, but it's NOT the nuts. I have acheived $20,000+ buy playing with an edge. Yes AT THAT POINT, I have the edge, but it's not guaranteed! Why give the a ultra tight player 1% chance? He plays 1 hand in ????fifty?sixty? seventy?
All i'm saying is let them make their money playing the suckers. If there we're nine other players at the table, playing the same way as me, the tight player would never make a dollar, (inless they changed the way they played). They only make a profit, because weaker players think there're hand is better.
How often have you guys called a raise, then found out you've had the worst hand? If you knew your hand was worse than the other player, you'd fold. Weak players don't realise their hand is second best to the tight player-therefore the tight player feeds off of them. If the weak players never played those hands-and everyone else never played the tight players, the tight players would never make a profit. The fact is there are always players willing to play the tight players, hoping for a little bit of luck.
If I'm in any doubt whether he's bluffing, stealing blinds or changing gears-I PLAY. YES THAT'S RIGHT....I PLAY!
Just to recap-In my view, throwing away Pocket Aces preflop is extreme, VERY extreme, but I will probably do it again in the next 300,000-500,000 hands.
Come on guys, if i can make $23,000 by playing poorly, (as you're suggesting i do), surely it means everyone who disagrees with me makes more?????
For one LAST time. I very, very, very, very rarely fold pocket Aces. But i do.
Posted Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:04 pm GMT by Johny
No matter how much you try to defend it you're still wrong. How much money you've made playing poker has nothing to do with what you're saying.
Posted Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:11 pm GMT by supafrey
I've made more. You're wrong.
Happy? 
Posted Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:22 pm GMT by Cheech3398
Why are you still posting?
Posted Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:45 pm GMT by weirdofreek
| Cheech3398 wrote: | | Why are you still posting? |
You guys are getting kind of mean don't you think? I agree folding pockect aces preflop is a bad idea but this is out of line I think. To each his own.
Posted Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:40 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
I can kind of see his point. Why go in with an 80-85% chance to win most of his money when you can constantly feed off his blinds indefinately with no risk? If the guy is willing to sit there for 5 hours with you and give away his blind each time why take the risk of him lucking out and beating you and then not having enough time to recoup the money? Basically what hes trying to say is his willing to sacrifice some potential extra money to be 100% sure of making a nice profit of this guy. Its a nice idea, but I can only see employing it in VERY extrodinary circumstances. Not many ppl are gonna sit there for 5-6 hours and only play 4 hands. THAT is a terribly terribly losing strategy. I doubt those kind of players actually make money in the long run.
In the long run with this extremely tight player, you blind him off til he has no more money, and have 0% chance of losing.
Posted Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:21 pm GMT by tutubird
Of course if you have AA you are not garenteed to win. But that goes along with every other hand you play.
Strangely enough, I also know someone who folds pocket aces preflop. Although I think its for a different reason. He said that he " just don't like aces". At Jackson, he folded pocket aces preflop. His argument "...I would have lost".
Posted Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:31 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | In the long run with this extremely tight player, you blind him off til he has no more money, and have 0% chance of losing. |
You don't need to look at your cards. You'll never know what you're folding.
Folding AA in a cash game preflop is never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever correct.
Posted Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:28 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
I was wrong. He should've folded AA.
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:50 am GMT by Jefecaminador
Ok look at it this way. The guy will play indefinately until one of two things happens, he goes broke, or wins more than x% of his initial buy in. If he only plays KK and AA and raises a lot preflop with them, and folds all other hands to raises then folding AA preflop is ALWAYS the right move. You're giving him a 15-20% chance of winning enough money to leave the table. IF you blind him out on the other hand you have a 100% chance of taking ALL his money.
Would this situation ever come up in reality? Probably not, but it is a time when folding AA preflop is the correct move.
Never say never!
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:13 am GMT by supafrey
| Jefecaminador wrote: | Ok look at it this way. The guy will play indefinately until one of two things happens, he goes broke, or wins more than x% of his initial buy in. If he only plays KK and AA and raises a lot preflop with them, and folds all other hands to raises then folding AA preflop is ALWAYS the right move. You're giving him a 15-20% chance of winning enough money to leave the table. IF you blind him out on the other hand you have a 100% chance of taking ALL his money.
Would this situation ever come up in reality? Probably not, but it is a time when folding AA preflop is the correct move.
Never say never! |
Still horrible logic.
A tight player who only plays QQ+/AKs is more than likely to go to the felt with it if you reraise with AA. And them being "blinded" to nothing is next to impossible.
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:08 am GMT by BeerWench13
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | Why go in with an 80-85% chance to win most of his money when you can constantly feed off his blinds indefinately with no risk? |
Am I the only one who sees this play as teh ultimate wuss play in poker? I'm not trying to be mean, but come on. Get real. No risk? When you move in with the best hand, yes, there's a risk, but the ultra-tight player is at more risk. Again, unless he has AA also, he's dominated preflop. If he's holding KK and the flop is 2 5 7, you're getting all of his money. Why would you only want his blinds? I'd be aiming for his whole stack.
| jimmer wrote: | | In cash games the situation is different. The point is; preflop, i have the best hand, but it's NOT the nuts. |
Yes it is. Preflop, there is no better hand.
| jimmer wrote: | | How often have you guys called a raise, then found out you've had the worst hand? |
I understand what you're trying to say here, but, in this situation, it is not possible for you to call with the worst hand. You have the best hand. How many times have you raised only to be re-raised or called by a better hand? The tight player may not play much, but when he does and you're holding the absolute nuts preflop, you should reraise him. What if tighty decided he was tired of folding and he decided to raise with 78s? Anything's possible.
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:23 am GMT by zinn0
| zinn0 wrote: | | supafrey wrote: | | My head hurts. |
|
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:28 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Jefecaminador wrote: | Ok look at it this way. The guy will play indefinately until one of two things happens, he goes broke, or wins more than x% of his initial buy in. If he only plays KK and AA and raises a lot preflop with them, and folds all other hands to raises then folding AA preflop is ALWAYS the right move. You're giving him a 15-20% chance of winning enough money to leave the table. IF you blind him out on the other hand you have a 100% chance of taking ALL his money.
Would this situation ever come up in reality? Probably not, but it is a time when folding AA preflop is the correct move.
Never say never! |
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | Folding AA in a cash game preflop is never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever correct. |
OMFG would someone lock, delete and BURN this thread before some poor beginner thinks this is anything other than incredibly bad advice?
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:58 am GMT by golddog
The "feeding on blinds" thing is abysmal illogic.
If that is the case, then, in the few times where the super-tight player overcomes your AA, I'll just win it back via feeding on his blinds.
Under the big part of the bell curve, I win both his bet and his bilnds when he rebuys.
What Sean said. +1
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:05 am GMT by arras
| zinn0 wrote: | | zinn0 wrote: | | supafrey wrote: | | My head hurts. |
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Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:15 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
I'm not saying this is a real world senario, but there ARE times when folding AA is the best move. Think outside the box people.
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:17 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
| golddog wrote: | The "feeding on blinds" thing is abysmal illogic.
If that is the case, then, in the few times where the super-tight player overcomes your AA, I'll just win it back via feeding on his blinds.
Under the big part of the bell curve, I win both his bet and his bilnds when he rebuys.
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You can't feed off his blinds if he leaves the table after cracking your aces. If you're playing poker to make the highest +EV play every time, and you're in this senario the highest +EV move is to fold and blind him off.
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:21 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | I'm not saying this is a real world senario, but there ARE times when folding AA is the best move. Think outside the box people. |
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | Folding AA in a cash game preflop is never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever correct. |
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:22 pm GMT by supafrey
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | golddog wrote: | The "feeding on blinds" thing is abysmal illogic.
If that is the case, then, in the few times where the super-tight player overcomes your AA, I'll just win it back via feeding on his blinds.
Under the big part of the bell curve, I win both his bet and his bilnds when he rebuys.
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You can't feed off his blinds if he leaves the table after cracking your aces. If you're playing poker to make the highest +EV play every time, and you're in this senario the highest +EV move is to fold and blind him off. |
In your magical scenario it's just as likely that lightning will strike a tree outside his house, cutting off his internet access permanently. It's +EV to take his money, right now, with your aces.
Your attempts to "think outside the box" are pretty much retarded. 
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:23 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | If you're playing poker to make the highest +EV play every time, and you're in this senario the highest +EV move is to fold and blind him off. |
This scenario does not exist, ever. If it did, you would never have to look at your cards. Folding AA is meaningless, because you would raise every hand until he played back, and then you would fold. If you were holding 72o or AA doesn't matter.
BUT THIS SCENARIO DOES NOT EXIST, EVER.
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:06 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: |
Folding AA is meaningless, because you would raise every hand until he played back, and then you would fold. If you were holding 72o or AA doesn't matter.
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Thats all I'm trying to say. Thanks for illuminating my point.
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:23 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | Thats all I'm trying to say. Thanks for illuminating my point. |
And here is why the play is ultimately -EV.
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:01 pm GMT by Cricket_Fire
Is the whole point of poker not to get your money in with the best hand?
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:54 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
The whole point of poker is to make the most money possible. Folding AA preflop is never a good idea UNLESS it is under very extreme circumstances. The example I gave would prolly NEVER happen in real life, but IF it did, then folding AA preflop would be the correct move.
Its kinda like the example given earlier in the tournament section on when its good to fold AA preflop. They said if you have the big stack and there is a small stack and two medium stacks left, you know that the mediums will not risk going out before the small stack, so its a good play to fold to the small stacks all in even if you hold AA. The logic being that you'll make more money pushing around the medium stacks then you will by taking out the small stack right away.
If you guys disagree thats fine, because the point is pretty much mute anyway, since this senario will likely never happen.
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:59 pm GMT by zinn0
Ok, I want to stab my eyes out now. I'm serious.
I'm with Sean, lock this thread. The sheer stupidty in this mess requires it.
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:01 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
alright fine I give up.....
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:26 pm GMT by Johny
| zinn0 wrote: | | I'm with Sean, lock this thread. The sheer stupidty in this mess requires it. |
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:51 pm GMT by snoogins47
Folding AA in a cash game? Funny you asked... Imagine...
You're playing NL against somebody who has put his entire bankroll in play, with 20000BB stacks, heads up. Just as he clicks the re-raise button when you have Aces, to go all in over the top of your 4bb raise, the unbridled fury of his ultratightness fuses his mouse to the desk, but not before it is frantically nudged two inches to the left.
The nefarious white spy superglued Mr Tightington's right hand to the back of his neck, and the even more nefarious black spy superglued Mr Tightington's ass and back to his chair, which was superglued to the ground by that weird, somewhat nefarious gray spy that showed up every now and then (what, me worry?)
While this was transpiring, a gang of highly trained, genetically spliced chimparoos (who had, incidentally, just finished modifying one of those drinking-bird toys/trinkets/gadgets into a fully functional perpetual motion machine) came into Mr Tightington's house, and placed Whistley (that's the bird) securely (superglued) on the desk, lined up with the mouse button (he's on a mac, so there's only one).
(Tragically the entire Chimparoo squad ended up suffering an even worse fate: whenever they caught some food, they'd attempt to put it in their "pouch." They didn't have pouches. Bewildered, they would repeat this futile effort until eventually they were driven mad, and hopped their way across the country, destroying countless villages, towns, municipalities, townships, cities, metropolises, megalopolises, and even unincorporated parts of southern Wyoming. The U.N. eventually wiped these demons off the earth by way of an N2 mine.)
Anyway, this entire time, and forevermore hereafter and thereafter neverending, Mr Tightington is doomed to watch this heads up game, his entire net worth on the line as all that happens is the check/call button is pressed every 5 seconds. At that point, his opponent, being an expert world class poker player championship bracelet holder-winner knows that he should fold his Aces, and just complete and check until he finds himself with the nuts on the river, win the money, and enjoy his good happy success.
So, the next time you're holding AA in a cash game and get re-raised, just face the west and hold a song, a prayer, a chip, and a chair, in your heart (or hand, if it's a physical object) up high, remember the Chimparoos, and you'll know exactly what to do.
Posted Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:06 am GMT by supafrey
You don't lock threads for differing opinions, you yahtzees.
Posted Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:37 am GMT by TxShadow
I've had quite a bit to drink tonight. I am simply posting here so that tomorrow, when I wake up, I can verify that I did indeed just read the most rediculous thing that I have ever read without having to actually read it again.
Posted Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:14 am GMT by Johny
| supafrey wrote: | | You don't lock threads for differing opinions, you yahtzees. |
*post padding
That's all this thread is worth.
Posted Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:15 pm GMT by Cheech3398
| weirdofreek wrote: | | Cheech3398 wrote: | | Why are you still posting? |
You guys are getting kind of mean don't you think? |
No.
He keeps trying to defend himself and keeps getting told his logic is completely wrong. Why is he still posting? Now others are trying to back it up and the world is about to implode.
Posted Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:04 am GMT by BeerWench13
I need a beer. Maybe if I were drunk I could understand?
Posted Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:26 pm GMT by Johny
| BeerWench13 wrote: | | I need a beer. Maybe if I were drunk I could understand? |
No, you couldn't.
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