Since when is calling with the best hand a bad call??? |
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Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:09 am GMT by raisebot
I'm f'in pissed. :x
Not so much at the hand I lost at, but a comment a fellow dealer made while I was telling him my cry me a river bad beat story.
As far as I've always known (or maybe just wrongfully believed?), if you call with the best it was a good call. If you were beat, or it wasn't potentially profitable enough to chase but you chase anyway, then it was a bad call. Simple stuff I always thought.
So let's make it even easier than that and take chasing out of the equation, so we're theoretically eliminating the flop, turn, & river :D
So you're playing preflop, with no flop, so only your 2 starting cards are whats going to decide if you made a good call or bad call. Aces are the best, as always, so you would always be crazy to not get all your money in, correct?
Does anybody disagree that AK is much, much better than K9s?
The extremely short version is this. Live cash game at Binions, $1/2 NL.
Me- AKo on button. 3 limpers before me. I raise to $15. Everyone folds except the guy right before me. He sucks, I know he has shit, and he's about to fold when I did a little something that made him reconsider, and instead of folding he raised me all in, I had about $80 left and he only had about $120, but he DID have me covered. So I call, pretty much downright pleased he gave me the action, but blah blah blah he made a straight on the river, he didn't want to show his cards as I immediately showed my AK, he had K9s and caught a 10 high straight when 4 cards on the board surrounded his live 9. Dammit- "But in the long run..."...I've heard that stupid comment a billion trillion f.cking times, but we all know it's right- If I had the choice to put all my money in preflop against K9 every single time, I'd spend every living moment of my life taking that bet; I wouldnt even spend the money because all my time would be at the tables...
But no it can't be that simple. I see a dealer I work with in the break room and I tell him the hand. He starts criticizing me and saying I made a bad call- I had the best hand, I had him dominated, and I got my money in. How is that a bad call? He starts going off into some tirade about how the guy was representing on a smaller medium pair or how I should have put him on aces, there's 5 cards to come, and some other shit. I knew he had crap, and I induced action to not only call my initial raise, but instead to make a stone cold bluff against me when in reality I had him destroyed.
So I see another fellow poker dealer walking by in the break room, and I ask him,"If I call your bet preflop, I have AK and you have K9, is that a bad call?" His answer- "it depends..." 
Did I somehow miss an integral part of poker when growing up?? We're really NOT supposed to get our money in when we have the best??
Am I just maybe insane?
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Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:44 am GMT by UrAteUp
Been there and done that. No you made the right call. Remember though that little thing called varience which is that % of the time when AK doesn't win. All-in AK vs K9....dang straight I would make the call.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:35 am GMT by BeerWench13
I think that the "It depends" comment, was based on what hand you believe your opponent to be playing. If it's a solid player who hasn't played many hands and would only make that move with a big overpair, it's a bad call. However, based on your read, you made the right play. The best hand doesn't always win. That's just part of the game. Don't beat yourself up about it. | Soup_dog wrote: | | Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while. |
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:15 am GMT by Gogie
I can't imagine too many situations, given the way the betting went, that AK isn't calling that all in even before buddy gets his chips in the middle. Think about it. Three limpers to you on the button, you have AK. The only hands that can dominate AK are AA and KK. If you raise and the two early limpers fold, what 's the chances of the guy in the cutoff having either AA or KK? Let's back up the action for a minute. If there are two limpers to the cutoff and he's sitting on AA or KK he has to raise to get rid of one or both of them or at least get position by getting the button to fold - no way he wants more than 1 or 2 callers with either of those hands. So in my opinion the best hand I can put him on after the button raises would be middle pair (JJ's or lower). That means that at worst it's a coin flip. It costs you $80 to call his all in and there's now $99.50 already in the pot (I think my math's right), so you're getting better than even money for your call. In the long run you come out ahead.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:47 am GMT by raisebot
And the thing is I understand that, but my fellow co-workers obviously feel otherwise 
I said in the very beginning of my first post I wasn't so much pissed at the way the hand played out, it was the comments I heard afterwards when explaining the hand to someone I work with.
I understand that's poker, and shit happens. Been there, done that, felt the pain, also dished the pain for years now. I deal for a living, I've seen plays worse than you could ever imagine, dealt some of the worst suckouts ever, but thats all yesterdays news so to speak. I'll get over it, always have, and last night was no different.
I dont know, some people's thoughts on the game stray sooooo far from the basics (basic rule #1- have a better hand than your opponent); that their unwanted wrong advice and awful tips they try to give (hey man I'm just trying to help you improve your game), that next time instead of sharing a story with someone I know (yeah ok I was looking for some sympathy when telling the story to the co worker; nothing wrong with that after a bad beat), I'll just tell no one and stew about my anger and frustration by myself.
Because after all is said and done, I don't need the added stress of having some moron question my obviously correct play, then have moron #2 back him up.
So I guess I'm really not insane for getting my money in with the best hand?
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:17 am GMT by BeerWench13
| No Limit wrote: | | So I guess I'm really not insane for getting my money in with the best hand? |
Well, I don't know if you're sane or not  , but you're not insane for getting your money in with the best hand. That's all you can do. I would play against your co-workers if I were you. It sounds like they'd pay you off more than likely.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:21 am GMT by golddog
The only time this statement wouldn't apply is one of those weird post-flop hands where the current worst hand has the flush/straight draws and overcards to an underpair, so they actually are the favorite because of the better draw.
There's no way in the world you made the wrong call, as BeerWench says, given your correct read of the opponent. That's the only thing I can figure your fellow dealers are really trying to criticize; not that you made the right play given the cards, but that you should've read him for more strength. In other words, they think you misread him and got lucky that he didn't have what he was representing.
Since you were at the table and they weren't, it comes down to how much you believe your read. Turns out you were right and unlucky.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:53 am GMT by tame_deuces
Calling with the best hand is bad when the majority of the time it will be the worst hand and you don't have the pot odds to call.
(Imagine a rocky online player bluffing with a straightflushdraw on a 6 K A board, and you hold TT...a majority of the time you are toast in that situation and it would be a bad call).
And so can folding the worst hand be. (if a total maniac is pushing into you time after time, then folding ATo preflop is a horrible move, even if he has aces this time).
There are alot of 'amazing calls' that are just plain luck, and there are alot of amazing laydowns that are just nitty play.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:26 pm GMT by Cheech3398
| No Limit wrote: | | (basic rule #1- have a better hand than your opponent) |
since when is that rule number 1?
| Quote: | Calling with the best hand is bad when the majority of the time it will be the worst hand and you don't have the pot odds to call.
(Imagine a rocky online player bluffing with a straightflushdraw on a 6 K A board, and you hold TT...a majority of the time you are toast in that situation and it would be a bad call).
And so can folding the worst hand be. (if a total maniac is pushing into you time after time, then folding ATo preflop is a horrible move, even if he has aces this time).
There are alot of 'amazing calls' that are just plain luck, and there are alot of amazing laydowns that are just nitty play. |
I dont understand this reply... He correctly put the guy on rags and called, and turned out to have him dominated. He just happened to get nailed thats all.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:38 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| Cheech3398 wrote: |
I dont understand this reply... He correctly put the guy on rags and called, and turned out to have him dominated. He just happened to get nailed thats all. |
I wrote a post in reply to the thread title 'Since when is calling with best hand a bad play?', so that's my post is about.
So we call with AK when it is probably best hand and/or we got pot odds, and we lay it down when it is probably the worst hand and/or we do not have pot odds.
I wasn't criticizing the OP for anything, I just reflected on the fact that calling with a best hand can be a bad play and so can laying down the worst hand be.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:46 pm GMT by suitedaces84
I was playing 1/2 NL on party and almost the exact same thing happened me. I was OTB w/2  8  and there were a couple limpers. So I raise it to $15. Everyone folds to the CO, who goes all in for $80. I put him on a re-steal so I called. He had 2 3  .
The final board is T J Q K A and we split the pot.
The very next hand I pick up K K . Again there are several limpers (including Mr. 23o from last hand) so I raise it to $15 again. Everyone folds to Mr. 23o who goes all-in again. I call he shows A A and takes my stack.
I think the first call was good and the second call was bad. What do you guys think?
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:49 pm GMT by zinn0
I think you're funny.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:52 pm GMT by Johny
It's funny, but it's true.
It's an easy way to show what Tame was saying.
Posted Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:53 pm GMT by Fat Tony
| No Limit wrote: | | And the thing is I understand that, but my fellow co-workers obviously feel otherwise |
My question to you is why do you care so much what some random co-workers think when they are quite obviously wrong?
Posted Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:31 am GMT by Iron Butt
| Johny wrote: | It's funny, but it's true.
It's an easy way to show what Tame was saying. |
Huh? I thought what Tame was saying is there are situations where the hand that's ahead isn't the favorite and vice versa, and aces was saying that if you're going to analyze your play it's a mistake to be results oriented.
Posted Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:38 pm GMT by Johny
| Iron Butt wrote: | | Huh? I thought what Tame was saying is there are situations where the hand that's ahead isn't the favorite and vice versa, and aces was saying that if you're going to analyze your play it's a mistake to be results oriented. |
| Quote: | | I wasn't criticizing the OP for anything, I just reflected on the fact that calling with a best hand can be a bad play |
I was talking about Suited's first example with this statement.
I thought that Suited's first example also showed that calling with the best hand isn't always the right decision. I guess not then.
Posted Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:30 pm GMT by mindgame
There is a long, established, and profitable tradition in poker of letting fools keep and cherish their misconceptions and crackpot ideas. This forum runs deeply counter to that tradition, but here we are. If your fellow dealers insist that it's idiocy to call that bet, why not honor the tradition and (as has been suggested above) just play poker with them?
It is folly, surely, to improve their reasoning (and their game).
Posted Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:57 pm GMT by kainARGH
i think the only point your fellow dealer was trying to make was,
aparently he was going to put a limp-move all in player on a pocket pair every time... but anyway,
if the other player has a pp and you have AK, you should fold to the all in.
In your described situation - hell yea i call. But if you think they have a pp then you should fold - but I dunno. I think your fellow dealer was thinking anytime someone limps then goes all in they have a pp - which is wrong.
getting about 120 to 100 I think your correct to call AK VS 22-QQ - so again your dealer friend is wrong.
Posted Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:42 am GMT by raisebot
| mindgame wrote: | .....If your fellow dealers insist that it's idiocy to call that bet, why not honor the tradition and (as has been suggested above) just play poker with them?
It is folly, surely, to improve their reasoning (and their game). |
I have played poker with these people, a couple of times at the very least. But I don't make it a point to "go after" people that think that way. I'm not prejudiced, everybodys money is the same color; if a co-worker happens to be in the same pot as me, then so be it, but I'm not going to play against somebody just because of a grudge.
And again, I obviously know calling all in with AK isnt always the best idea- my problem is someone saying my call against K9 was a bad call. Thats my problem.
Posted Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:11 pm GMT by mindgame
I wasn't implying anything about grudges or other emotional attachments to beating someone. Success in the game is achieved by expoliting the weakness and mistakes in the play of your opponents. You can either play against those who are better at the game than you are, and part with your money, or you can find easier tables. The best way to prove a point to a poker player is to take his money.
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