$5/$10 Online... Too aggro? Call down? |
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Posted Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:40 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Full ring 10-handed table. No reads. I'm in MP with A  K  . UTG raises to $10. I re-raise to $15. The button cold calls 3 bets. Blinds fold, UTG caps, I call, button calls.
Flop K  7 4 . UTG bets $5. I raise to $10. (OK?). Button cold calls two bets. UTG calls.
Turn 10 . UTG bets $10. Hero?
My thought here is call down, depending on button's action. Agree/disagree?
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Posted Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:41 pm GMT by supafrey
raise once, call down after.
nothing's really scary here. just looks like a stop and go.
Posted Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:18 pm GMT by crack
What is your raise on the flop supposed to achieve with regards to the button?
I think I would call the flop and raise the turn if button just calls.
Posted Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:29 pm GMT by zinn0
I think a raise on the turn is in order. Call a 3-bet and call down on the river.
Posted Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:00 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
Button has AA. UTG has AK. Game over. Actually I don't really know
but seems to me Button must have a complete monster of a hand to be just smooth calling behind you guys. That or hes a fool. My best bet would be that UTG has some sort of good drawing hand. Maybe A10 hearts
Posted Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:04 pm GMT by mikenike
call. see what the river does. hes got top pair but you have him out kickered.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:33 am GMT by Phil14312
Why does everyone think we have UTG beat here a lot? He capped preflop, that narrows his range, a lot. If you beat one, chances are you don't beat both of the villains.
I call down from the turn. It looks like UTG has AK, but button might have AK or AA or KK, unless he's a complete donk with like AQ of hearts or something.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:10 am GMT by Jefecaminador
Well I've seen tons of people cap the bet with good drawing hands, not necessarily monsters like AA. It disguises their hand pretty well. I wouldnt be too surprised if he had QJ hearts or even something like J9 hearts either. Though AK is a likely possibility as well. My thinking is that button really does have a monster hand though, probablly AA or KK. If he has AA I can definatelly just see him smooth calling, because first if someone does have a drawing hand, he wants to wait until the turn to raise, because it looks doubtful hes gonna be able to push someone out at this point. Second, his hand might not be good, but hes kind of a puss if hes afraid hes beat here. And if he has KK, well then hes definately waiting to raise on the turn, you guys are basically doing his job for him by betting and raising.
I agree with the check/call down, but I really think you're behind in the hand. Thats assuming the button isnt a complete moron.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:20 am GMT by Hurricane Ham
I like calling down, and running in fear if button suddenly wakes up with a raise on the turn.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:05 pm GMT by Phil14312
| Jefecaminador wrote: | Well I've seen tons of people cap the bet with good drawing hands, not necessarily monsters like AA. It disguises their hand pretty well. I wouldnt be too surprised if he had QJ hearts or even something like J9 hearts either. Though AK is a likely possibility as well. My thinking is that button really does have a monster hand though, probablly AA or KK. If he has AA I can definatelly just see him smooth calling, because first if someone does have a drawing hand, he wants to wait until the turn to raise, because it looks doubtful hes gonna be able to push someone out at this point. Second, his hand might not be good, but hes kind of a puss if hes afraid hes beat here. And if he has KK, well then hes definately waiting to raise on the turn, you guys are basically doing his job for him by betting and raising.
I agree with the check/call down, but I really think you're behind in the hand. Thats assuming the button isnt a complete moron. |
I haven't found a whole bunch of FL games online where someone will cap preflop with QJ or J9, on the flop, maybe, but preflop?
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:23 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
Is TT out of the range of possibles for UTG? Lends the turn bet some sense outside of the stop and go, and I don't think that's likely in a 3-handed pot where the button has already shown his propensity for calling a lotta bets cold. I'd be less surprised to see the button show AA/KK than UTG.
| Phil14312 wrote: | | I haven't found a whole bunch of FL games online where someone will cap preflop with QJ or J9, on the flop, maybe, but preflop? |
OOP to boot.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:42 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
Maybe its just the 1/2 tables I've been playing at, but i've that play quite a bit actually. They like their drawing hand and figure if you're gonna 3 bet them and get a caller, then capping isnt too much more to pay. Just saying what I've seen.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:48 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | Maybe its just the 1/2 tables I've been playing at, but i've that play quite a bit actually. They like their drawing hand and figure if you're gonna 3 bet them and get a caller, then capping isnt too much more to pay. Just saying what I've seen. |
But these hands won't normally open UTG for a raise either. I've "capped for value" a bunch of times, and most of my sickest poker stories contain that phrase, but it's the original raise that doesn't fit.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:53 pm GMT by Phil14312
My conclusion: you are up against at least one AA or KK from either of the villains, but the pot is too big now to fold, call down the turn. Any raise by the button makes me want to stab my eyes out.
Posted Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:10 am GMT by shorn7
At this point, I would be more worried about the button here. WTF does he have?? Anyway, there is too much in the pot to fold but you can't raise UTG again, so I just call it down. I am pretty sure we are behind here (maybe to both), but pot is too big to fold.
Posted Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:08 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I decided to call down. Are you ready for this?
UTG had AA and had me beat. But the button had K  T for best two pair on the river, and took the pot. Can you say, "donkified"? Who the hell gets involved for three bets preflop with KT, then calls two more bets on the flop with top pair, crap kicker? I thought it was funny.
Posted Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:20 am GMT by Jefecaminador
Wow, just wow. Did button call down as well or did he reraise?
Posted Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:59 pm GMT by lwestatbus
There are at least two other current threads on or near this topic. The bottom line is that top pair (or an overpair) is just a pair. I agree with check-call down for two reasons:
1. If you're beat you minimize your losses.
2. If you're ahead, you may signal a busted flush, AQ that didn't hit, or something else and induce a bet that you may not have had (he'd have folded if you'd bet the river).
Button's play was pretty loose, but not maniac. He cold called two bets preflop with a relatively big suited king. He was getting 3.5:1 on his money on that call and then on the cap bet he was getting 11:1. (I think--can't see OP from this edit window to review details.) Then he had TP and a ten kicker. Now ten isn't great, but it isn't horrible either. Top pair is a powerful incentive to stay in a pot, especially with two other participants. And remember, he hasn't seen you play and you don't know what he has seen about UTG. I'm always suspicious of a new player who goes ballistic in an early hand--my suspicion is that they're a wacko testing the waters.
For what it's worth, I like your thought process in analyzing the other players as the hand progressed. You were clearly dead on target in both cases--not to calling the exact cards but the nature of the hands they held. This is something I'm trying to work on myself but I find that my brain doesn't work naturally along those lines while the little timer bar is counting down in an online game.
Posted Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:20 pm GMT by TheSalche
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | I decided to call down. Are you ready for this?
UTG had AA and had me beat. But the button had K T for best two pair on the river, and took the pot. Can you say, "donkified"? Who the hell gets involved for three bets preflop with KT, then calls two more bets on the flop with top pair, crap kicker? I thought it was funny. |
thats why i hate limit poker sometimes
Posted Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:05 pm GMT by Phil14312
The button called 3 cold. Its so hard to place someone on a hand when they call 3 cold, but in general, they are a fish.
Posted Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:39 pm GMT by lwestatbus
| Phil14312 wrote: | | The button called 3 cold. Its so hard to place someone on a hand when they call 3 cold, but in general, they are a fish. |
You are correct. When replying to a multi-page post you seem to get one page's worth of content in the Topic Review window working from most recent backwards.
So, that is pretty loose. Maybe fish-loose, maybe just gamble-loose. I think that I would make that call if the pot was four-way (including me) but not three-way. Again, Button may know that UTG is a loose player (I hate it when a player I know is loose to even wild makes a real hand since I just never put them on it.)
Had a hand last night (low fixed limit ring) where I was the button with suited 8-2. UTG raises and there were five callers before me in what had been a really tight table. So I was getting 6:1 on my money plus the blinds and was pretty sure BB would call. SB called, BB reraised, all called. Whoooaaa. Flop gives me two more diamonds. I'm not going anywhere now, even though my diamonds are low. Flop is raised once. Turn misses me (no paint, aces, or pairs on board, by the way). Bet once with several callers, some folds. River makes my flush--whooeee. BB bets, one caller. I KNEW that BB had a big pocket pair (AA in fact) and remaining player was UTG (original raiser) so I put him on a pair as well (he had JJ which remained an overpair to the board) and was willing to gamble that he hadn't been calling down with AK in my suit. I raised--BIG hesitation, call, no raise, and I took it. Then caught hell all night from AA because I'd played 8-2. So, was I a fish? At almost 7:1 I don't think 7-2 offsuit is fish bait. The minute those two diamonds hit the flop these guys should have been calming down a lot and the third diamond and a calling station on the button should have had them checking.
Posted Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:25 pm GMT by Skribbles
Odd hand.
Well, the turn lead from UTG is odd. If he has a monster wouldn't he check? You showed strength on the flop and the button seems like a call station so why wouldn't he have let you bet, button call, then raise?? I guess he could be expecting you to raise again and pull a 3bet out.
Raise: You could be putting alot more money into a pot that you are way behind. UTG seems to like his hand which looks like AA. If he does have AA, you are getting 3-bet and then calling down, thus putting in 2 extra bets in this hand (provided the call station on the button doesn't come to life).
Call: Gets you to a showdown cheaper. Gives button a cheaper draw at his flush... that I assume he is drawing at. But either way he will be getting the odds to call it (raise or call).
My choice: Call. Looks like UTG has you beat or at best you split. Only hand I can see you ahead of is QQ. JJ or anything doesn't *usually* cap UTG. With not seeing the guy play, I'd put his hand range at AA, KK, AK, QQ... 2 lose, 1 draw, 1 win.
Edit: Crap... should have read the second page before posting...
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