Basic NUT peddling lessons : Your move?! |
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Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:07 am GMT by supafrey
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Hand #335784933 at table: Table TH 670
Started: Mon Jun 19 13:55:34 2006
MrPLOVDIV is at seat 1 with 400 .00
Diefast2b1 is at seat 2 with 408 .30
csodapok is at seat 3 with 419 .50
sybs23 is at seat 4 with 424 .99
supafrey is at seat 5 with 681 .80
X-Charity is at seat 6 with 390 .00
Yussuf99 is at seat 7 with 400 .00
GotThePowR is at seat 8 with 380 .00
Ivanovitj is at seat 9 with 528 .70
Backofen is at seat 10 with 396 .00
sybs23 posts the large blind 4.00
csodapok posts the small blind 2.00
csodapok: -- --
sybs23: -- --
supafrey: A  Q
X-Charity: -- --
Yussuf99: -- --
GotThePowR: -- --
Ivanovitj: -- --
Backofen: -- --
MrPLOVDIV: -- --
Diefast2b1: -- --
Pre-flop:
supafrey: Call 4.00
X-Charity: Call 4.00
FOLD Yussuf99
GotThePowR: Call 4.00
FOLD Ivanovitj
Backofen: Check
MrPLOVDIV: Call 4.00
Diefast2b1: Call 4.00
csodapok: Call 4.00
sybs23: Check
Flop (Board: 6 4 7  ):
csodapok: Check
sybs23: Check
supafrey: Check
X-Charity: Check
GotThePowR: Check
Backofen: Bet 12.00
MrPLOVDIV: Call 12.00
FOLD Diefast2b1
FOLD csodapok
sybs23: Call 12.00
supafrey:????
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Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:56 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
Call. Give the other two a chance to donate, and playing this OOP after a c/r is tough if you miss the turn.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:28 am GMT by UrAteUp
I agree with Sean here. Just call and see what the turn brings. If it completes your flush then you can start raising and getting aggressive.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:57 am GMT by TxShadow
Call.
You're 4:1 to make your flush on the turn. Immediate odds are giving you just over 5:1.
Right? Right??
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:12 am GMT by Fat Tony
I'd definitely call here, but be ready to release this if the turn doesn't help.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:06 pm GMT by supafrey
Nobody likes a raise? NOBODY?
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:24 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| supafrey wrote: | Nobody likes a raise? NOBODY?
|
Not with being OOP and the bettor having posted a live blind. Besides, what do you gain from a raise here? Are you trying to win the pot now? Probably won't. Do you just want to build a pot? Perhaps not a good idea since I don't believe you're ahead, and some of your outs are likely taken by another caller.
If you raise, get a caller or two and whiff the turn, do you lead again? I might, but I'd rather keep the pot smaller now and see how the turn works out.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:30 pm GMT by supafrey
flush hitting would kill the action.
With 3 other players in (not to mention those behind me), i'm likely to be raising for value, actually, if i raise.
No one likes disquising their hand with a raise?
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:42 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| supafrey wrote: | | flush hitting would kill the action. |
Not from a smaller flush, and I think that's a legitimate possibility, but that hand probably isn't folding to a flop raise anyway.
| supafrey wrote: | With 3 other players in (not to mention those behind me), i'm likely to be raising for value, actually, if i raise.
No one likes disquising their hand with a raise? |
I don't think it's that much of a disguise, and I'm more concerned with getting blown out of the pot on the flop.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:56 pm GMT by groton
What i want to know is why no Raise Preflop.
AQ Suited is a Raise hand.
but on the Flop there i am going just call and hope a Spade hits.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:59 pm GMT by supafrey
Not UTG with my reputation and against decent enough players at these stakes. I'd get pushed pretty heavy on this run and gun table and would be forced to fold. AQs has some value multi ways... some 
Personally I like a raise - I doubt I'm getting pushed out of the pot and it gives me a chance to win a huge hand regardless. Any flush draw (like you said yourself, sean) likely won't fold - this makes my raise seem like a perfect opportunity for a small suited connector to salivate at "breaking me"...
Nobody agrees? I'll post more decisions for the hand soon....
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:07 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
Perhaps it's just me being a weak-tight nit. Of course, I never seem to actually play that way, so I don't know where I get it.
Do I recommend a raise here? No.
Would I raise if I were in the game? I wish I could say I wouldn't, but yeah, probably. I'd feel dirty the whole time though.
I guess the biggest problem I have with a raise is I don't have a plan for the rest of the line.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:15 pm GMT by Johny
I like a raise if it's heads-up or 3 way, but missing the turn OOP in a multiway pot sucks.
I like raising with draws to"disquise" my hand, but I like to have fold equity, which I don't think you have here.
I understand that you probably want some action on the flop and hope to hit the turn, but when raising I want more than one way to win the pot when semi-bluffing. I'm not really a fan of bloating pots with draws.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:20 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
So you're on a run and gun table. What makes you think you wont be put all in if you check/raise? Obviously since you're posting it the hand probably works out well for you, but regardless, you're getting great odds already with potential for a few more coming in. I don't like risking shutting myself out of this pot or missing the chance to stack someone if they're also chasing the flush. Again, this is based on the premise that the table is quite capable of playing back at you. If you think you can just bully them into just calling your raise then by all means go for it. I'd pop it low though, maybe something like 40$ total, you want ppl to be getting right odds to call you.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:25 pm GMT by supafrey
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | So you're on a run and gun table. What makes you think you wont be put all in if you check/raise? Obviously since you're posting it the hand probably works out well for you, but regardless, you're getting great odds already with potential for a few more coming in. I don't like risking shutting myself out of this pot or missing the chance to stack someone if they're also chasing the flush. Again, this is based on the premise that the table is quite capable of playing back at you. If you think you can just bully them into just calling your raise then by all means go for it. I'd pop it low though, maybe something like 40$ total, you want ppl to be getting right odds to call you. |
If you think I only post winners, look in the "most memorable hands" thread that just started.
But your thinking near the end is what I was going for. Small raise, but just enough to make them remember me as the aggro one in the hand. Gives me a little more control for cheap price AND balloons the pot surprisingly well....
But the turn is a nice one...
supafrey: Raise 32.00
X-Charity: Call 32.00
FOLD GotThePowR
FOLD Backofen
FOLD MrPLOVDIV
FOLD sybs23
Turn: 9
supafrey: ????
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:28 pm GMT by Johny
Bet 1/2 the pot.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:30 pm GMT by TxShadow
Maybe I'm being a weak tight nit too, but I don't like raising here simply because the pot is already pretty large, I don't want to get pushed out of it by raising here when I could have just called.
I like drawing to the nut flush for a good price, which will most likely be the best hand (unless someone catches the SF). Not often that you get good immediate odds to call in a situation like this.
I just don't think the risk of getting raised is worth the extra value we would get by raising and getting a caller(s).
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:31 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
Is that a raise to $32 or a raise to $44?
Anyway, bet bet bet. Smaller flush and straights will pop it for you.
nh luckbox
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:34 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
I'd make a semi strong bet. Something thats low enough that it looks like you could lay it down to a reraise. This is where you'll find out if someone else has a flush too. Looks like the hand either ends here, or you'll stack the baby flush. Unless something bizarre happens like its folded around and the last guy pushes with trips.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:36 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | I'd make a semi strong bet. Something thats low enough that it looks like you could lay it down to a reraise. This is where you'll find out if someone else has a flush too. Looks like the hand either ends here, or you'll stack the baby flush. Unless something bizarre happens like its folded around and the last guy pushes with trips. |
Unless I misread the action, it's heads-up now.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:37 pm GMT by TxShadow
Annnd I posted too late.
Nice turn card. At the tables that I play at a bet of less than 1/2 the pot would probably work best (No one catches on and they pretty much pay you off all the way or push if they have a decent hand). But that probably doesn't work as well here. You wouldn't want to do anything that looks fishy. He's probably expecting you to come out betting regardless of what hit on the turn (thanks to your aggresive raise on the flop) so don't dissapoint him.
I like a 1/2 pot bet.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:41 pm GMT by Johny
I like a 1/2 pot bet because it can be interpreted as a defensive bet. You may get a raise from Villain hoping to represent a flush.
A bigger bet usually takes away the possibility of your opponent trying to steal the pot.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:51 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Johny wrote: | | A bigger bet usually takes away the possibility of your opponent trying to steal the pot. |
I don't think there are a lot of hands that would call the flop raise and have to "steal" the turn. If villain pops it, it's because he thinks he's ahead.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:52 pm GMT by snoogins47
| Johny wrote: | | I like a raise if it's heads-up or 3 way, but missing the turn OOP in a multiway pot sucks. |
Yeah it's kinda uncomfy. EDIT: I meant to say also here that while it's uncomfy, I think checking the turn gets you a free river card fairly frequently even while OOP.
| Quote: | I like raising with draws to"disquise" my hand, but I like to have fold equity, which I don't think you have here.
I understand that you probably want some action on the flop and hope to hit the turn, but when raising I want more than one way to win the pot when semi-bluffing. I'm not really a fan of bloating pots with draws. |
I think a sizeable check-raise has a reasonable chance of picking up the pot actually. A decent amount of the time it fails, with one caller we're actually ahead sometimes, and slightly behind sometimes... with more, we might be winning more than our share as well. I think that the options are probably both reasonably viable, so we just flip a coin and do whatever we feel like. Keep in mind though that a lot of the hands that will call a flop check-raise on this board are draws, which is great for us.
After you hit gin on the turn, small side of a reasonable bet is probably right... With as weird a reputation as mine, check-calling, and hesitantly leading the river with a reasonable bet might be better, just because it's so weird, and some people will call down when I take that line with like, any pair, and I'll stack them anyway if they made a flush. The only thing I can say for certain is that I hate check-raising again. If this were live, I double check my holecards conspicuously and bet about 1/2 the pot.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:01 pm GMT by Johny
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | Johny wrote: | | A bigger bet usually takes away the possibility of your opponent trying to steal the pot. |
I don't think there are a lot of hands that would call the flop raise and have to "steal" the turn. If villain pops it, it's because he thinks he's ahead. |
Good point. I was just saying that if there's any chance Villain has a marginal hand on the turn, I don't want to shut him out with a big bet. I guess you won't get raised very often if Villain doesn't have a straight or flush. You'll probably get a call more often from a relatively weak hand with a smaller bet.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:13 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Several pro players recommend a raise when you have a nut flush draw going. Like Supa mentions, it helps disguise the hand. It also builds some major pots.
Ok so you got your flush Supa....now what? Me personally...i give my hand away right here and pushhhhhh.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:16 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| UrAteUp wrote: | | Ok so you got your flush Supa....now what? Me personally...i give my hand away right here and pushhhhhh. |
Please go back to the first page, look at the stack sizes and explain why a push is a good idea.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:36 pm GMT by TxShadow
| UrAteUp wrote: |
Ok so you got your flush Supa....now what? Me personally...i give my hand away right here and pushhhhhh. |
Why on earth would you risk making him fold at this point?
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:41 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
If you raised on the flop (I think both raising and calling are viable moves, and I'd probably alternate between them), I'd go for a check-raise on the turn to feign fear of the flush card. He'll almost certainly pay you off with a weaker flush, especially if he puts in a bet first.
Personally, I think raising is a good move on the flop for three reasons.
1. It reflects your equity, as you may have as many as 15 outs.
2. It may buy you additional outs (such as the Q), you might not otherwise have.
3. It adds deception to your hand if you make your flush.
The downside of raising, as was mentioned, is that play becomes more difficult if you brick the turn. But, for a decent player, you should have a good idea of where you stand on the turn if you get called on the flop.
Calling is the safer play, but you will probably only get paid by a weaker flush if you do hit a spade.
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:03 pm GMT by supafrey
I bet the turn.
Here's why. I've made my hand, but there's very little way for our opponent to know this. Like said previously, a defensive bet here looks just as much like a cautious overpair or set than anything else - a flush check raise on the turn SCREAMS strength, something I'm not particularily interested in doing.
By "disquising" my hand on the flop, I'm allowing myself to have the opportunity for a sneaky "defensive" bet on the turn once my draw hits. It lets me inflate the pot on the turn WITHOUT giving up the true strength of my hand. Most strong hands will raise me on the turn REGARDLESS of what cards they hold - exactly what I want. All it cost me was 20 bucks extra on the flop. Think about it: For 20 bucks on a previous street, I've allowed myself atleast 50-60 EXTRA on the turn... Exactly why I think "disquising" is the proper play. Thinking ahead.... that's all...
Regardless...
supafrey: Bet 60.00
X-Charity: Raise 120.00
supafrey: Raise 220.00
X-Charity: Call 220.00
(P.S. Sean, I only reraised an additional $20 on the flop. Only 20 bucks and I get folds AND an inflated pot AND additional respect... that's why I thought the raise was proper....)
River : K 
supafrey: Bet 136.00
X-Charity: All in
Mainpot:
supafrey wins the pot of 837.00 with ace high flush
ALL that for just an extra 20 bucks on the flop. Get it yet?
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:33 pm GMT by TxShadow
Did he have a smaller flush?
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:40 pm GMT by TxShadow
Just for fun:
| supafrey wrote: | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hand #335784933 at table: Table TH 670
Started: Mon Jun 19 13:55:34 2006
MrPLOVDIV is at seat 1 with 400 .00
Diefast2b1 is at seat 2 with 408 .30
csodapok is at seat 3 with 419 .50
sybs23 is at seat 4 with 424 .99
supafrey is at seat 5 with 681 .80
X-Charity is at seat 6 with 390 .00
Yussuf99 is at seat 7 with 400 .00
GotThePowR is at seat 8 with 380 .00
Ivanovitj is at seat 9 with 528 .70
Backofen is at seat 10 with 396 .00
sybs23 posts the large blind 4.00
csodapok posts the small blind 2.00
csodapok: -- --
sybs23: -- --
supafrey: A Q
X-Charity: -- --
Yussuf99: -- --
GotThePowR: -- --
Ivanovitj: -- --
Backofen: -- --
MrPLOVDIV: -- --
Diefast2b1: -- --
Pre-flop:
supafrey: Call 4.00
X-Charity: Call 4.00
FOLD Yussuf99
GotThePowR: Call 4.00
FOLD Ivanovitj
Backofen: Check
MrPLOVDIV: Call 4.00
Diefast2b1: Call 4.00
csodapok: Call 4.00
sybs23: Check
Flop (Board: 6 4 7 ):
csodapok: Check
sybs23: Check
supafrey: Check
X-Charity: Check
GotThePowR: Check
Backofen: Bet 12.00
MrPLOVDIV: Call 12.00
FOLD Diefast2b1
FOLD csodapok
sybs23: Call 12.00
supafrey:???? |
| supafrey wrote: |
supafrey: Raise 32.00
X-Charity: Call 32.00
FOLD GotThePowR
FOLD Backofen
FOLD MrPLOVDIV
FOLD sybs23
Turn: K
supafrey: ????
|
What's your play here?
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:47 pm GMT by TxShadow
And assuming that you would come out betting again, how do you handle a big raise?
Posted Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:44 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Depending on your opponent's hand, Supa, I think check-raising or betting the turn accomplish the same thing, but betting also includes the risk of your opponent folding his hand, and you getting no more money. I would probably say a mix of about 30% bets and 70% checks in this situation is good.
There are a few possibilities here:
1. You bet and he folds, and you get no more money from him.
2. You bet but he has a slightly weaker hand and pays you off anyway. This is probably the case for you this time, but I think it's rather lucky it was. Alternatively, he could probe your defensive bet, but what hand range will he do this with, and how do you extract more value after that if his hand isn't that strong?
3. You check, he bets, and you get at least the amount of his bet. The downside here is that is does scream strength, but he'll probably pay you with a weaker flush anyway with the way that you and I play. If he has a weak hand, notice the same thing happens as in case 1, but you make more money.
4. You check and he checks behind. Now if you bet the river, it may just look like you're testing him for weakness, and he may pay you off with a worse hand.
Given these options, I prefer checking the turn the majority of the time, but I think betting sometimes is in order.
| Quote: | | Like said previously, a defensive bet here looks just as much like a cautious overpair or set than anything else |
But given that's the case, what fraction of the time do you see him go into raising mode simply as a bluff?
I think your play was good, but my guess is he must have had to have a pretty strong hand and paid you off regardless of how sneaky you played this hand. Set, flush? Or is your opponent a total donkey?
Posted Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:38 am GMT by Eusebio
Lets play the scenario different.
Lets say you bet the flop, but miss the turn. How would you go on? Or lets say how far would you go with the missed turn? Just calculating odds?
Posted Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:40 am GMT by Jefecaminador
While you make some good points diamond I'd have to disagree with you. You've taken the momentum in the hand and people are expecting you to stick with it. It damages your image as the aggressor if you play the check raise with the nuts. You want people to think that whenever you betting they should be folding. Granted, you proabably will make money against a wider variety of hands with a check, but your table image suffers, plus you miss out on a chance to stack a weaker flush and possibly a set. And I think your priority here is to play the most profitable way assuming they have a weaker flush/set, since other hands won't really be making you that much money. I say play for their whole stack, and if they fold, so be it, they probably wouldnt of paid you off anyway.
Posted Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:57 am GMT by supafrey
I'm betting 60 regardless of the turn, probably. But that's just me.
Which is another reason why I have to do it when the flush hits. It makes alot more money for me...
Diamond: I think I'm being raised on a spade turn a gooooood majority of the time. A slow played set would need to do it, as would a baby flush. I'd rather win a stack than win an extra 40 by checking and raising to show my nuts.
Posted Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:50 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| supafrey wrote: | I'm betting 60 regardless of the turn, probably. But that's just me.
Which is another reason why I have to do it when the flush hits. It makes alot more money for me...
Diamond: I think I'm being raised on a spade turn a gooooood majority of the time. A slow played set would need to do it, as would a baby flush. I'd rather win a stack than win an extra 40 by checking and raising to show my nuts. |
I agree with you. My point is simply that he NEEDS a hand as good as a set or a baby flush for you to win a stack, which is why I doubt it makes a huge difference whether you check or bet into it. If you check-raise, you MAY force a set to lay down, but I highly doubt a flush will lay down if you've been playing your LAG game.
Basically, it comes down to hand range. If you know that he'll pay a whole stack with a set or a small flush, then count the EV from betting vs. the odds he has a hand he'll probably throw away, then compare that to the hand range he will bet if you bet. I'd say SHAL is probably in order to calculate the ideal move here.
Betting has the best shot of winning you a stack, but only if your opponent has a very good hand (or is a total fish).
Checking has the best shot of winning you SOME money, but maybe not a whole stack (player/hand dependent probably).
But very nice play, regardless.
Posted Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:20 am GMT by tame_deuces
| supafrey wrote: | | ALL that for just an extra 20 bucks on the flop. Get it yet? |
We can't assume things from a single hand. This is really a flop that can hit limping hands in NL, and there are some players in here. Most of the time you'll miss the turn and sometimes get raised then also, which has to be added into the equation of whether betting is 'profitable'. Re-opening the betting round can also lead to a raise, which also has to be added in etc. etc.
I guess what I'm saying is...nh, and nice haul...but the investment you make by aggression into this pot is much bigger than 20 bucks.
That said I don't mind the play, it's aggressive and allows us to play sets/straights the same way later, which ultimately I think is the 'real' winner of being aggressive with draws.
Posted Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:10 am GMT by supafrey
I know. I was being quietly fecetious with my 20 buck comment. It's still cheap, in my opinion, compared to the pot that can come as a result.
And yeah, that other stuff about me cashing in on the biggie hands in much the same way is spot on. Welcome to my world.
Posted Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:49 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| supafrey wrote: | | And yeah, that other stuff about me cashing in on the biggie hands in much the same way is spot on. Welcome to my world. |
Someone needs a downswing and the resulting humility to go with it.
Posted Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:01 am GMT by supafrey
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | supafrey wrote: | | And yeah, that other stuff about me cashing in on the biggie hands in much the same way is spot on. Welcome to my world. |
Someone needs a downswing and the resulting humility to go with it. |
I've had a couple in my time - I just keep them quieter.
And they've done NOTHING to my ego. =)
Having one of the best days I've ever imagined yesterday helps too.. keke....
Posted Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:37 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | UrAteUp wrote: | | Ok so you got your flush Supa....now what? Me personally...i give my hand away right here and pushhhhhh. |
Please go back to the first page, look at the stack sizes and explain why a push is a good idea. |
Ok so the push was overkill....  ...the push would be good if you suspected one of the other players has a set. If you give him a chance to see the river cheaply it could cost you.
For the most part though, after I make my flush I just try and think of the best way to get all his chips in the pot. Usually this is done by showing a sign of weakness. Check/call here is possible and then check /push after the river if the board has not improved or paired.
Posted Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:02 pm GMT by supafrey
That's really bad urateup. Don't slowplay flushes - you get bad river cards killing your action and any pair will scare you. Get money in while you can.
Posted Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:47 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| supafrey wrote: | | That's really bad urateup. Don't slowplay flushes - you get bad river cards killing your action and any pair will scare you. Get money in while you can. |
For the most part I do agree but there are times when a slowplay works well. Personally I still stick to my original move and push all-in after I hit my flush. I want all the chips I can get in the pot before the hand turns bad.
Posted Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:33 pm GMT by Fat Tony
Sure a slowplay is sometimes a good thing, but it's usually either tried far too often or at the wrong time.
Posted Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:37 am GMT by UrAteUp
| Fat Tony wrote: | | Sure a slowplay is sometimes a good thing, but it's usually either tried far too often or at the wrong time. |
Been guilty of that one enough...  . I personally used to love the slow play but then I noticed too often it backfired on me and would give someone a chance to make the nuts or at least a better hand then mine.
Now about the only hands I do tend to slow play is the nuts. Hands like quads, boats and straight flushes are all hands I will and do slow play.
One of the best feelings in the world is when you hold the nut hand and someone makes a move to try to take down the pot...
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