Posted Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:40 pm GMT by craggoo
I was thinking about this just now and wanted some input from some of the THP community. Say that im holding a high PP like AA or KK and the flop is all low cards. If i were to get raised on the turn and believed they were holding 2 pair is it correct to call a big bet from them? I ask this because if you put them on 2 pair you have 8 outs (2 from your PP and 3 each from the 2 unpaired board cards that your opponent doesnt hold) to draw out on them. I had a similar situation in a tourney earlier today. Sorry i dont have the hand history to post up so i'll try to recreate it as best i can.
I made it 5X BB in the BB with AA and the 4 people that had already limped called. Flop is something like 8 5 3 rainbow. I bet half the pot and i get 2 callers. Turn is a 5. I bet half the pot again and get raised over twice whats in the pot. Its pretty reasonable to assume he has a 5 here so i mucked. Im pretty sure that was the correct thing to do (I wasn't even nearly pot committed). I know that feeling pot committed is a pretty common mistake for most people.
So what do you think? Lemme know your input!
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Posted Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:03 pm GMT by greathuskie
with 4 limpers in front of you, raise more preflop, especially if its early in a tourney
Posted Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:49 pm GMT by craggoo
Well generally i raise 3X the BB through the tourney so considering it was 5BB+the one i already had in making it 6 i think that shoudl be plenty to make mediocre hands fold. You do want SOME action dont you? 
Posted Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:14 am GMT by shorn7
Huskie had it right. With that many limpers, I move to a pot sized raise preflop to limit the field or even win it right there, especially in a tourny where I can't re-load. Then, if I get a caller or two, I make a larger bet on the flop, probably pot sized and if called play small ball from there on out (unless I improve).
To your question though, yes it is proper to fold most times when someone raises your turn bet in these cases. You only have one pair and they are raising you after you have shown strength three times (preflop, flop, turn), so it is unlikely that your hand is good. Sure, someone could have an overpair lower than yours, but my guess is that they would have raised the flop with those holdings, so it is more likely that you are up against 2 pair or a set.
In my experience, you can lose a lot of $$ getting too married to overpairs or top pair hands. Don't committ with these holdings unless stack sizes dictate that you do. Wait for when you have 2 pair or a set and let your opponents commit drawing thin.
Posted Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:05 am GMT by supafrey
Why would you want to win preflop with KK?
Posted Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:35 pm GMT by Johny
| supafrey wrote: | | Why would you want to win preflop with KK? |
Don't win more that way? You won't get outdrawn.
Posted Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:31 pm GMT by shorn7
Supa-
In a cash game, I agree you want action. But it isnt the worst result to raise enought that potentially everyone folds. At worst, being in bad position, you want no more than 2 callers because the chances of losing your stack with this hand (versus winning someone else's) is high.
In a tourny, however, I would argue that taking it down preflop is a very good result. Yes, you have the 2nd best hand, but that doesn't mean you want to play a big pot yet. And, I think you would rather get heads up, especially out of position. Since you can't re-load, IMO it is better to limit your downside by sacrificing some equity on the upside.
Posted Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:47 pm GMT by supafrey
oh. I politely disagree. I like playing hands when I have the best hand.
Posted Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:21 pm GMT by UrAteUp
The thing most people don't understand is your PP is only the best hand against a limited or small number of people in the pot. The PP might the best hand pre-flop but it has to be protected. The more people in the pot the more likely after the flop your PP is going to loose value and could be beat already. Thats why if 5 limped before you and you raise you need to raise it enough to chase 3 or 4 of them out.
Posted Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:43 pm GMT by MJJ
| UrAteUp wrote: | | The thing most people don't understand is your PP is only the best hand against a limited or small number of people in the pot. The PP might the best hand pre-flop but it has to be protected. The more people in the pot the more likely after the flop your PP is going to loose value and could be beat already. Thats why if 5 limped before you and you raise you need to raise it enough to chase 3 or 4 of them out. |
Not to start a new tangent here but...
This is why people keep bitching when you buy into 20nl with $5, you don't have enough money to protect your hands and you can't realize the big payday when you hit your monsters... The only thing buying in short accomplishes is to minimize your losses when you get beat; if you win more than you lose it is a hole in your profits.
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:41 pm GMT by davepoker
supafrey
with AA or KK you will usually win a small pot or lose a big pot just like doyle brunson said in supersystem.
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:45 pm GMT by supafrey
no. That's not true. I have won many very big pots by starting with the best pocket cards.
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:00 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| davepoker wrote: | supafrey
with AA or KK you will usually win a small pot or lose a big pot just like doyle brunson said in supersystem. |
I still think that's one of the stupidest things Doyle has ever said.
Posted Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:27 am GMT by shorn7
I agree with Doyle to a degree. I would encourage people to look at their PT databases and see where most of their profit comes from. Yes, AA and KK are big winners, but the hands where you double through are much more likely to be middle and small pairs that flop a set AGAINST AA and KK, or suited connectors that make the str8 against an overpair or a set. All of the other hands that we play (especially unsuited high card hands) pretty much wash out as 0 EV over time. Only AK will likely make a profit from unpaired high cards over time.
Anyway, I agree that you can win big pots with AA and KK. But, you are much more likely stack someone else with these hands too which is what I think Doyle was referring to.
Posted Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:52 pm GMT by davepoker
Key word- USUALLY, not always. Althought they are great hands it is just unfortunate they turn out that way. If you isolate one or two players they will usually hold up, but at a tighter table you often lose a large pot. When you raise, the first thing people put you on is AA, KK, or AK, so they dont often call unless they think they can beat you. So you win a small pot if they miss the flop, but if they hit the flop, youre going to lose alot of chips just like shorn7 said.
Posted Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:07 pm GMT by tame_deuces
If you're playing me you should def. call.
Jokes aside, its player dependant. That AA is just a pair is a big understatement. AA is a big pair. Like many poker decisions there is always a fine line between being nitty and being clever.
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