Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:20 am GMT by jimmer
So, I get roped in to helping my mate move house. As a thank you we end up in this bar, him buying me beer. This group of lads are stood next to us talking about poker. It turns out there's a game in the backroom starting very soon. My mate informs them i'm into poker and before you know it i'm sat at the table, ready to hand over £50. The start of the game is slowed up somewhat, because thay are waiting for this guy called Phil. He eventally arrives and soon i find most of these lads worship the ground he walks on. The rest think he's a donk!
The game then gets underway. We're playing NL hold'em, winner takes £300, 2nd £150 3rd £100. Within an hour i see why this guy is loved and hated. He has an opinion on every hand, even when he's folded preflop. "....You should of raised that!.....you are 60/40 favorite.......inless you've got a spade, i suggest you fold............". He also takes his time on everyhand, like his life depends on it. When it was my turn to deal, the pot was raised, he thought for about 3 minutes, making comments like "He always raises three times the BB with pocket pairs" and "I know you've got a good hand, 'cause you haven't played anything all night, the question is, is my hand better"????". He then folds and being the dealer, i decide to have a sneaky look at his cards. He had J3 off-suit!!!! THIS DECISION TOOK 3 MINUTES!!!!!
I can see how the bad players like his behaviour as they are learning as they play, but i can also see why half the table think he's a complete donk. Myself included.
Anyway, this is where it gets interesting. We're down to the final 3 players. Rough chip count is Me=4,200, Phil(donk)=3,900 other guy 900. The blinds are 100/200. I get dealt 94 off-suit and raise 600 (that's right, i raise 600 with 94 off suit), the other guy folds and phil re-rasies 2000. I think for about two minutes then announce "If you have what i have, we split the pot, if you don't then i'm favorite to win", I then re-raised all-in. He thinks about it for a moment and then folds showing pocket queens asking "have you got pocket Aces?"
THIS IS MY QUESTION; Do i
A. Say "yes" and Muck
B. Say "no, but close" then muck
C. Show him my 94 off suit.
D. Something else.
I don't like the bloke, nor have i any intentions of playing in this game again.
I'll give you the outcome later.
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Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:36 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
C. Show him the 94.
You deserve a bit of revenge. Watch him wallow in pain as you flip over your ugly cards. He'll be deeply on tilt and you will win the game within the next 5 hands.
Generally it's inpolite to show a bluff like that, sort of cocky, if you will, but you don't like this guy and he's been annoying all night.
Show, show, show!
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:01 pm GMT by Miss_J
yup totally, put him in place.
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:29 pm GMT by Iron Butt
| Quote: | | He then folds and being the dealer, i decide to have a sneaky look at his cards. |
 You could get hurt doing that in a money game with strangers. Do you realize that's cheating? Sorry to say so, but it is.
As to the question, I'd muck and smile. I love players who talk a lot, and even more players who fold QQ three ways and then show, but I also love players who bluff and show; I think they're all very fishy behaviors. I think you could likely induce massive tilt by showing the bluff, but at this point I want to just quietly outplay this guy especially if he's showing weakness rather than induce him to play back at you. If he's folding too many hands you're correcting his play by doing that.
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:35 pm GMT by Icec0o1
I just wanted to say that you couldn't have made it more obvious that you didn't have AA or KK and how that guy folded QQ is beyond comprehension.
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:45 pm GMT by Icec0o1
| jimmer wrote: | | i decide to have a sneaky look at his cards. He had J3 off-suit!!!! THIS DECISION TOOK 3 MINUTES!!!!! |
First of all, that's incredibly rude. And second, have you ever heard of something called acting? I know it's beyond you but there's a reason why he did that, moreso than just being an ass and slowing the game down.
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:54 pm GMT by groton
dont show.
let him stu a bit then take him down
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:49 pm GMT by crack
I never, ever show my cards.
I decided to take this route because I think it will play on the mid of a player if isn't sure if he was ahead or behind. when you show, it is like the brain makes the decision and then it may piss him off, but he can at least move on because he knows the result.
If you do not show, the brain does not know the result, therefore there is still a question mark and the hand will play on his mind. It also gives you a stronger table image if you only show at showdown, because you should usually have the best hand then and it should stick in players minds.
Also, it's funny you should mention tilt. I don't know about you guys, but if I am the better player at the table, then why would I need/want someone on tilt? I am confident I will outplay the guy and win. Especially when it is shorthanded I think the thing you need the least right now is a guy showing blind aggression, this is the way shorthanded poker should be played, aggression.
Muck your hand and say you will tell him what you had after the game.
Where abouts is this in the UK btw?
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:02 pm GMT by jimmer
| Icec0o1 wrote: | | have you ever heard of something called acting? I know it's beyond you |
What have i done to piss you off? Inless of course, this was you!
| Icec0o1 wrote: | | but there's a reason why he did that, moreso than just being an ass and slowing the game down. |
He took ages on every hand. In my experience a large majority of the hands i play are easy folds pre-flop. (Not much thinking involved there-or is there ice-pop?)
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:14 pm GMT by jimmer
| crack wrote: | | I never, ever show my cards. |
Yeah, nor do i. that's why i have a bit of a dilema
| crack wrote: | | Where abouts is this in the UK btw? |
this game was in london, but i live near bath. You?
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:40 pm GMT by crack
North east england now, where abouts in London?
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:06 pm GMT by jimmer
| crack wrote: | | where abouts in London? |
ok, i know the people from here don't consider it as london, but i do (cause it's within the M25!) It was Enfield. It was in the main high street, i guess you're gonna ask me the name of the pub. i can't remember at the mo, but a quick phone call will sort that out if you wanna know?
I recon they play every Monday, the game looked pretty organised and everyone knew everyone else.
I'll tell you what happened tomorrow, but i don't think i'll be invited back!
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:23 pm GMT by crack
I don't really know the Enfield area that well, but when I visit/move back to London it will probably be around the Woodford area which is not too far from Enfield. I will make a note of the pub name if that's ok just in case.
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:31 pm GMT by Raisor
"The blinds are 100/200. I get dealt 94 off-suit and raise 600 (that's right, i raise 600 with 94 off suit), the other guy folds and phil re-rasies 2000."
Did he raise to 2000? Or reraise 2000?
Sounds like he raised to 2000.
Did he show what he had? He had half his chips comiteed.
I would have been like "Once I stack your chips, I'll show you"
xD Dick
Posted Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:53 pm GMT by Icec0o1
| jimmer wrote: | | What have i done to piss you off? Inless of course, this was you! |
Heh if that was me, I would be stacking up your chips. And I didn't mean to be that offensive towards you, I'm just sick of poker (been playing way too much lately) so I'm just in a crummy mood.
In all seriousness though, I hope you realize that anyone holding A's or K's would never do what you did and any decent poker player would've made that call.
Posted Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:01 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Not showing probably hurts him more than showing.
Sure he'll get a jolt there and then if you show, but if you don't show it'll probably grate on him much longer.
And btw, don't let people get under your skin at the poker table. :D
Posted Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:00 am GMT by mortaleclipse
| Icec0o1 wrote: | | jimmer wrote: | | What have i done to piss you off? Inless of course, this was you! |
Heh if that was me, I would be stacking up your chips. And I didn't mean to be that offensive towards you, I'm just sick of poker (been playing way too much lately) so I'm just in a crummy mood.
In all seriousness though, I hope you realize that anyone holding A's or K's would never do what you did and any decent poker player would've made that call. |
I have saw a guy give up his queens to exact same move and the guy did have aces. Was on WPT and a great preflop fold.
Posted Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:57 am GMT by jimmer
| crack wrote: | | . I will make a note of the pub name if that's ok just in case. |
My mates unsure, but will make a note next time he drives past.
| razor wrote: | . Did he raise to 2000? Or reraise 2000?
Sounds like he raised to 2000. |
Raised 2000, however the other guy was still short stacked so phil would still end up having more than him if he folded.
| Icec0o1 wrote: | | . And I didn't mean to be that offensive towards you. |
No probs
I get the impression we are all split 50/50 on whether to show or not?
Ok,so this is what happened; I decide to show. i don't normally, but wanted to see the look on his face more than i wanted to win the game. His response was brilliant! He totally went off on one. He accuses me of giving poker a bad name, he said i ruined the game for everyone and even said if he knew i was "that type of player", he would never of let me play in the first place. He then refuses to play another hand when I'm still sat at the table.
This is where the room splits in two, half of them suggest i should leave, the other half are saying i won the hand fair and square. Mean while, I'm still sat at my chair having not said a word.
After around 20 minutes they decide to give me my £50 back and inform me to leave. I then refuse. I inform them I had around 2/3rds of the total chips-i want at least 2/3rds of the total prize money. Eventally I leave having agreed to take £200.
Ten minutes later I'm walking home and phil catches me up. He wants to play me heads-up for £200. I said no, he swears a lot, I go home.
Should I go back next week??? (joke)
Posted Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:52 am GMT by UrAteUp
I agree with the half of the room that says you played fare and square. No one said this Phil guy had to lay his hand down to your all-in push. Hell if he knew how to play poker he would have called you even not knowing what you had realizing he is only behind to 2 other big PP.
As for playing him heads up, I think I would get in touch with him and do just that. Play solid ABC poker and the first good hand you get push. When you take ole Phil out in less then 30 minutes he might shut his damn mouth and move on.
Without evening knowing all the hoopla that came from you showing your cards, I wouldn't have shown. Your providing too much information about your playing style. I would have just looked at ole Philly boy...smiled...and said...no I had KK. Make him feel like he made a good lay down and knows what he is doing. Then the next time your invited back you could have really had fun knowing this guy is often easy to push off of a pot.
Posted Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:46 am GMT by Iron Butt
 Jeez, what an idiot. What a bunch of idiots... had a bar not been mentioned I'd have thought your story was about a children's game.
Now so if he refuses to play then he forfeits... so you got 200... OMG that moron didn't get cashed out 200 for getting his ass handed to him and then forfeiting did he??? Is it his daddy's bar or what?
Well anyway, nice one... you made a joke of that guy as he well deserved.
Posted Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:28 pm GMT by Ryan231
They asked you to leave? Thats pretty shady man, you didn't do anything wrong...
Posted Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:31 am GMT by jimmer
| UrAteUp wrote: | | As for playing him heads up, I think I would get in touch with him and do just that. Play solid ABC poker and the first good hand you get push. When you take ole Phil out in less then 30 minutes he might shut his damn mouth and move on. |
I'm crap at heads up, so this was an easy decision!
| UrAteUp wrote: | | I wouldn't have shown. Your providing too much information about your playing style |
This was my main concern. It's also the reason i never show my cards. However i figured i never wanted to play them again, so it was worth the risk.
(Now i can say; 99% of the time i don't show!)
Posted Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:13 am GMT by shorn7
No reason to show him. It is obvious that you can outplau him so jst do it. Since you don't know some of these guys, you don't really know what they are capable of, so I wouldn't risk trying to piss them off.
The only time I ever show cards is if I have been raising a lot as steals and then I make a legit raise and steal with it. Just want to give the impression that I don't do it with trash. Otherwise, make them pay to see.
I also agree that if this guy actually folded QQ in this spot that he is an idiot. Your most likely holding was AK (just based on the math), and he was getting a lot more than 1.05 to 1 to call after his raise. Stupid fold...
Posted Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:14 pm GMT by Johny
That's the dumbest poker game I've ever heard of. I probably don't show the bluff.
Posted Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:35 pm GMT by draconus
| Icec0o1 wrote: | | jimmer wrote: | | What have i done to piss you off? Inless of course, this was you! |
Heh if that was me, I would be stacking up your chips. And I didn't mean to be that offensive towards you, I'm just sick of poker (been playing way too much lately) so I'm just in a crummy mood.
In all seriousness though, I hope you realize that anyone holding A's or K's would never do what you did and any decent poker player would've made that call. |
I totally agree. I believe that your opening bet shows that you did not have pocket A's or Pocket K's otherwise you would have likely bet much more. I would have mucked the hand and taken this guy for his money because he obviously was not as good as he thought he was.
I rarely show my cards unless I am trying to create some sort of image for myself at a table. If I want people to believe that I am bluffing a lot then I might show them a hand or two in which I stole a pot on a draw so that they will try tempted to play when I have the nuts hand, otherwise I quietly muck my cards and take my chips.
Posted Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:28 pm GMT by Sid Lambert
1st of all, like ppl have said, don't take a peak at ppl's cards, regardless of whether you are the dealer or not, its unethical, and its cheating...and when playing a cash game w/ strangers...it could possibly start a fight
If you are considering showing cards, there are two things to consider, first of all, the skill level of the other players....the better the other players are, the less i'll want to show my cards...cuz they will take note of smaller details, and also note wut you are trying to do by showing your cards...the main reason tho is to change your table image...if for example, you have been stealing a lot of blinds, and everybody keeps folding, showing a big hand once and a while to show that you aren't stealing against a bunch of donks may be a good idea, just so that down the road you can steal w/ a more marginal hand....
showing a crappy hand is almost always a bad idea imho...basically you always want ppl to fold....showing a crappy hand makes ppl play back at you more cuz yer showing that you play w/ garbage...i suppose you could argue that it shows that you are unpredictable and hyper-aggressive at times, but donks will just think you suck...the only reason i can think of is if you are playing tight, and everybody knows it, and you just made a steal w/ garbage, that way when you get your next big hand, you can set a nice trap, cuz showing that crappy hand will make your table image less tight, this can backfire tho too....one kinda of unrelated reason is to honestly show somebody how to play more aggressive....other than that, all yer doing is getting into a pissing contest...and i don't think that is a strategically good idea...
Posted Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:55 am GMT by jimmer
| draconus wrote: | | I totally agree. I believe that your opening bet shows that you did not have pocket A's or Pocket K's otherwise you would have likely bet much more. |
Disagree, I'd been raising 3-5Xbb alot over the previous 20-25 hands. I was trying to steel the blinds and succeeding! In this particular game, if i'd raised more than 4bb they were normally folding.
If i had pocket aces or kings i needed somone to play back at me. Therefore i would only raise small. If this was a larger table, i'd play differently.
Obviously, knowing what i know now, i would of never played this hand at-all. I know i was very lucky!
Posted Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:48 pm GMT by Icec0o1
| jimmer wrote: | | draconus wrote: | | I totally agree. I believe that your opening bet shows that you did not have pocket A's or Pocket K's otherwise you would have likely bet much more. |
Disagree, I'd been raising 3-5Xbb alot over the previous 20-25 hands. I was trying to steel the blinds and succeeding! In this particular game, if i'd raised more than 4bb they were normally folding.
If i had pocket aces or kings i needed somone to play back at me. Therefore i would only raise small. If this was a larger table, i'd play differently.
Obviously, knowing what i know now, i would of never played this hand at-all. I know i was very lucky! |
I agree, your preflop bet was allright. I'm talking about the 2 minutes of pondering before declaring you have Aces, telling him to fold, and going all in.
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