Posted Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:31 pm GMT by Skribbles
Hero: $388
Villian: $400
Pre-Flop: Hero is dealth A  A  in EP. Villian limps from UTG, hero raises to $16. Folds around. Villian calls.
Pot: $38~
Flop: 6  6  4
Villian leads out for $20. Hero raises to $50. Villian calls
Pot: $138~
Turn: T
Villian checks, hero bets $85, Villian re-raises to $185.
Hero???
Thoughts on the way the hand has been played please. I have only been at the table for 2 rotations and villian has been there less. I have not previously played the fella.
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Posted Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:36 pm GMT by crack
Real difficult decision. It's hard to say what I would do too, I like to be able to get just the basic read on a player, I.e is he tricky enough to check raise and represent a flush.
A limp utg, that could be 44's, 66's. Axs.
Why lead? for 1/2 the pot though. that's what is troubling me. Without knowing the player it is so hard to determine what that means.
I think you need more info to make this call than what you have and I would lay it down. You still have $230 back and I have to give him credit if i don't know how he plays.
Posted Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:44 pm GMT by ScanX
I fold
the size of the raise scares me, especially since u dont have any information on the player.
he could have so many hands that beat you, it's not woth getting involved in a big pot so early with just an overpair on such a scary board.
u can have him later if he's such a LAG
Posted Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:46 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
It could be a small overpair to the 6. I'd reraise here.
Posted Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:43 am GMT by TxShadow
The way villain played this, the only thing I could put him on is the flush or TT. This is 50/50 push or fold imo. Just got with your gut and get ready to reload if you're wrong.
Posted Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:55 am GMT by shorn7
Well, I think you made a couple of mistakes here. I like the preflop raise...4x is a good number.
But, I would make at least a pot-sized raise on that flop. You are most certainly ahead of villain at that point (barring the unlikely holdings of 66 or 44, both of which he would have most likely checked on the flop for fear of losing a black AK), but there are a lot of cards that can come on the turn that you hate. It was $108 for his to call $30 after you raised, plenty to draw at a flush with the implied odds. You have to ask yourself, who is more likely to lose their stack on the next card, you or him? I say you and when that is the case, making a big raise on the flop is the best way to go. Make him committ there when you are 90-95% sure you are ahead.
Secondly, once the diamond falls on the turn, I want to play as small a pot as possible since your hand is really only a bluff catcher now (as someone with KK-JJ would bluff at the board). So, I check that turn card and try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. Some here might think that is weak, but IMO your $85 bet is certainly not a value bet here...you are either going to get him to lay down a worse hand (and win no more) or you are inviting a raise here and I don't think you thought through what you were going to do if he did push before you bet the $85. I always try to ask myself what my response would be to an all-in on a scare card before I bet...if the answer is fold, then it is better to not bet. This way, you might also get him to bluff at the river card, which if it isn't a diamond and his bet isn't too large, you can pay off. Basically, with a one pair hand (even AA) that doesn't match the board, I don't want to get too much $$ involved here.
As you played the hand, I lay it down on the turn. You have shown strength more than once, you only hold 1 pair, and he is still coming. Sure, you might be laying down the best hand here, but you have to be able to do that sometimes to be a consistent winner in this game.
Posted Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:56 am GMT by crack
In NL full ring games, there is a good chance with him sticking around he has 66 or 44. A general strat in NL full handed is to call raises from any position with pocket pairs for set value.
If this guy has a house or quads, he has played it brilliantly and knew his opponent was on a big pair. By leading out, he knows any good holding will raise him to protect against a flush, thus making the pot bigger.
Posted Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:15 am GMT by shorn7
Fine. I agree that 44 and 66 is somewhat plausible here. But, my point is that you should find this out on the flop with a big raise and when he calls it, then you shut it down. By making only a wimpy raise on the flop, and then following with a 1/2 pot bet on the turn, you will be potentially committing your stack to the hand which I don't want to do. If you made it $80 to go on the flop, you can potnetially save your stack down the road because after he calls, you can safely check the turn card and maybe get away from it on the river or call a smaller bet. The way it was played led to this tough decision which is what I want to avoid on a hand like this.
Making a larger raise on the flop will most likely save you $$ in the long run in these situations assuming that when you are called, you use this information to make a more informed (and overall cheaper) decision later in the hand.
Posted Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:16 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
So wtf happened? I need validation that I have no clue!
Posted Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:53 pm GMT by Aves
I don't think i've seen Shorn give one bad piece of advice yet. y'all should listen up
Posted Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:03 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
The folding the KK preflop was a little rough, but I tend to agree.
He should come to IRC with us.
Posted Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:10 pm GMT by Skribbles
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | So wtf happened? I need validation that I have no clue! |
I pushed. He folded.
I really couldn't put him on a hand that beat me. 66 or 44 would not re-raise me that much on the turn, neither would TT. The only plausible hand I thought he may have was the flush. I took my chance that he didn't have it...
Posted Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:13 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
I win.
Go me.
Posted Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:45 pm GMT by shorn7
Thanks for reminding me of the KK error Sean...very nice. 
Well, I guess you made the right read skribbles, but against tougher competition, IMO you need to learn to fold this hand if you want to make any serious $$ at this game. Most of the time, even if you are ahead, villain will have outs to beat you on the river so even if you make this play and are ahead, you won't always win.
I will say I am shocked that you pushed here. Would villain actually call you with a hand you can beat? I can think of only 4 hands (KK-JJ, AdTx) and based on the flop play, I don't see him holding any of them. So, it seems (again, to me) that you risked the rest of your stack in a spot that you are either crushed to two outs or you won't get called. I don't like that play.
I also say that the large raise on the flop would have been the better play and would have helped you define villain's holding better. You could argue that you wouldn't have won the additional $185, but I would counter with the fact that a lot of the time this game is about protecting your stack until you have the monster...IMO, black Aces on this board don't qualify as a monster.
Anyway, I hope this doesn't sound too harsh. Interesting hand that I am glad you posted.
Posted Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:59 pm GMT by Skribbles
| shorn7 wrote: | | Anyway, I hope this doesn't sound too harsh. Interesting hand that I am glad you posted. |
I ask for input, be it good or bad... it doesn't bother me.
You are right (mostly) in saying that no worse hand will call a push. With that much of his stack invested, a large pair with a diamond could call. But without pushing here, I have no hopes in winning the hand... obviously a call is out of the question.
Why do you not believe that the villian could not be playing KK-TT? A UTG limp can mean anything. I'm sure every poker player has limped UTG with a big pair in hopes of limp/raising. Had I been in his position with say KK, I would have simply called pre-flop. The hand is heads up so there is no reason for him to re-raise and give away the strength of his hand.
I pretty much just went with my gut though. Figured he had a mid to high PP and that he put me on overs (because of my weak flop re-raise).
Posted Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:59 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| shorn7 wrote: | | Thanks for reminding me of the KK error Sean...very nice. |
I've been rethinking that, and I can't say your argument was without merit...
...anyway...
...seriously, come join us on IRC. Instructions for joining are all over the place. You'd be a good addition, IMO.
Posted Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:08 am GMT by shorn7
I will try. Thanks for the invite. Only problem might be the firewall where I work. THP is one of the only forums I have been able to get on.
I will give it a shot in the next few days and see if I can get on.
Posted Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:12 am GMT by arras
| shorn7 wrote: | | Only problem might be the firewall where I work. . |
Yeah, firewall won't let me use it here either. I'm an evenening irc-er.
Posted Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:40 am GMT by shorn7
| Quote: | | Why do you not believe that the villian could not be playing KK-TT? A UTG limp can mean anything. I'm sure every poker player has limped UTG with a big pair in hopes of limp/raising. Had I been in his position with say KK, I would have simply called pre-flop. The hand is heads up so there is no reason for him to re-raise and give away the strength of his hand. |
Because I think on the flop he would have re-raised you after leading. He will be afraid of you holding diamonds too and if he holds KK, he will think he is ahead on the flop. Basically on that flop, if you both hold an overpair, all the money is going in or one of you is going to fold to significant pressure. Even if he held KdKx, I would still think he would re-raise you for fear of you holding at Ad (since he wouldn't). I am not saying it is totally impossible, but I just find it unlikely that he would lead and then just call that flop with KK. Unless he specifically puts you on AA, and knows you well enough that you will lay that down to significant heat on the turn if a diamond falls, he can't play it that way. Also, we can eliminate TT from the equation since if he held that he definitely calls the all-in by you with top set.
Anyway, If I had to guess specifically what he held (given that he folded to your push), I would say 77-99 with one diamond as those make sense with all his plays (other than maybe being a little loose with his call of your flop raise). He leads putting you on AK, you raise, he calls figuring he has potentially 11 outs (two set outs + 9 diamonds which he might be able to represent and you fold), and then when you push on the turn he figures that even if he hits his flush, he might lose.
Just my thoughts. Hey, you won the hand so what do I know?? :D
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