I'm pretty sure i played this right, please verify? |
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Posted Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:34 pm GMT by ComedyBee
PokerStars Game #5581175534: Hold'em Limit ($0.10/$0.20) - 2006/07/16 - 18:29:26 (ET)
Table 'Lohja' 10-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: Smiley614 ($1.30 in chips)
Seat 3: warbydo ($0.65 in chips)
Seat 4: L.A. VIC ($5.95 in chips)
Seat 5: ele_siete ($3 in chips)
Seat 6: fourbettor ($8.50 in chips)
Seat 7: kekova04 ($4 in chips)
Seat 8: azuver ($4.40 in chips)
Seat 10: CrustyFace ($3.50 in chips)
ele_siete: posts small blind $0.05
fourbettor: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to CrustyFace  
kekova04: folds
azuver: folds
CrustyFace: raises $0.10 to $0.20
Smiley614: folds
warbydo: calls $0.20
L.A. VIC: folds
ele_siete: calls $0.15
fourbettor: folds
*** FLOP ***   
ele_siete: checks
CrustyFace: bets $0.10
warbydo: calls $0.10
ele_siete: calls $0.10
*** TURN *** 
ele_siete: checks
CrustyFace: bets $0.20
warbydo: folds
ele_siete: raises $0.20 to $0.40
CrustyFace: calls $0.20
*** RIVER *** 
ele_siete: bets $0.20
CrustyFace: calls $0.20
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ele_siete: shows   (a flush, Ace high)
CrustyFace: mucks hand
ele_siete collected $2.10 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2.20 | Rake $0.10
Board
Seat 2: Smiley614 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: warbydo folded on the Turn
Seat 4: L.A. VIC (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ele_siete (small blind) showed and won ($2.10) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 6: fourbettor (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: kekova04 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: azuver folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: CrustyFace mucked
The reason i bet with the 3 clubs was because there were only 3 in, anyone drawing there is playing with poor pot odds and i also didnt want them to get a free card.
Dave
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Posted Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:20 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Ok, let's look at this step by step.
Pre-flop, you raised with AA. Good.
siete called one bet out of the BB with A2s, getting about 4-to-1 on his money. Also an ok play.
You got a fairly good flop for your hand. No straight draws, no real 2-pair opportunities. Only downsides are a flush draw and set possibilities.
The pot is $0.70
siete checked his nut flush draw.
You bet $0.10.
warbydo called.
siete is now getting 9-to-1 on his call, more than enough for a nut flush draw, even if he plans to see only one card.
Turn was a bad card for you, as it completed any flush draw and giving you no outs against a flush. It also gave anyone with QJ two pair. I would definitely have checked here. By betting, you played right into siete's hand. Betting was mistake #1 here. Mistake #2 was a small mistake, calling the raise, but calling here commits you to calling this bet and the bet on the river, and no river card is going to make you feel good.
| Quote: | | The reason i bet with the 3 clubs was because there were only 3 in, anyone drawing there is playing with poor pot odds |
Getting 9-to-1 on the flop, he wasn't going anywhere. On the turn, even if he had a one card flush draw, he would be getting at least 11-to-2 or 5.5-to-1 on his money, so really, betting does nothing to protect your hand, although it DOES risk losing a total of three bets instead of just one or none on the river. So betting here turns out to be a big mistake.
| Quote: | | i also didnt want them to get a free card. |
As we've seen, even if you bet, you cannot protect your hand, so this logic doesn't follow here. If he DOES have a draw, it would both be correct for you to bet and for him to call. But if he has you beat right here, you're just putting in a bet that will never come back, and you're faced with calling two more bets.
Posted Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:48 pm GMT by ComedyBee
Ok it was the wrong play. Ill take note on that one.
Dave
Posted Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:57 pm GMT by Phil14312
Either: Bet the turn and fold to a raise (sometimes hard to do with an overpair)
Or: check/call the turn and river.
Posted Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:27 pm GMT by suitedaces84
Diamond,
Saying you shouldn't bet to protect your hand because you can't protect it is wrong. Even if your opponent can correctly call w/a draw you should bet. Their call may be +EV but their EV would be greater if you gave them a free card. On this hand you stand to make 1/3 of a bet more by betting the flop than you would by checking; your opponent will lose 1/3 more by calling he would by getting a free card.
I would bet/fold the turn here unless I had a good reason not to (if my opponent is likely to make a play or if I've bet/folded often). With the player to act behind you, you can consider checking the turn and folding if the other guy raises or maybe fold if he calls and he's tight. But there's no need to pay off with a four flush showing. Don't be scared of a flopped flush until someone has shown a lot of strength, so just bet but be prepared to fold if another club falls.
Posted Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:04 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| suitedaces84 wrote: | Diamond,
Saying you shouldn't bet to protect your hand because you can't protect it is wrong. Even if your opponent can correctly call w/a draw you should bet. Their call may be +EV but their EV would be greater if you gave them a free card. On this hand you stand to make 1/3 of a bet more by betting the flop than you would by checking; your opponent will lose 1/3 more by calling he would by getting a free card. |
Yes, I realize that. What I meant is in this particular case, I don't like betting, because if we're ahead, our opponent will call us anyway, making us 0.8 BB in EV (approximately). But if we're beat, we stand to lose this bet, as well as his raise and a bet on the river if we plan to call down, for a total of -3 BB. So we lose very little value giving him a free card, but we stand to lose at least one BB if he has us beat. That's why I'd prefer to check here and then call one bet on the river.
But in most cases, you should still bet if it's +EV, such as betting top pair when there's 2 spades on board and you know your opponent has a spade draw. Even if you give him 20 to 1, you should still bet because you stand to make more by betting than by checking.
Sorry for not clarifying that earlier, and I'm glad you caught that suited.
Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:17 am GMT by Biowza
what i would of done different:
-raised more preflop.
-if they continued i would of tried to take the the pot at the flop or make it very expensive to see a turn.
other than that, bad luck, always sad to see aces busted.
Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:06 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| Biowza wrote: | what i would of done different:
-raised more preflop.
-if they continued i would of tried to take the the pot at the flop or make it very expensive to see a turn.
other than that, bad luck, always sad to see aces busted. |
It's limit. Those options are not available.
Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:45 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
| suitedaces84 wrote: |
I would bet/fold the turn here unless I had a good reason not to (if my opponent is likely to make a play or if I've bet/folded often). With the player to act behind you, you can consider checking the turn and folding if the other guy raises or maybe fold if he calls and he's tight. But there's no need to pay off with a four flush showing. Don't be scared of a flopped flush until someone has shown a lot of strength, so just bet but be prepared to fold if another club falls. |
I think you read the HH wrong, there was no flopped flush, the 3rd club came on the turn. Anyway, I think you played it fine, you can't go around checking everytime a flush draw hits. Then again, I don't play too much limit because of situations like these. I hate not being able to push people off their draws. I say bet/call the turn and call on the river, basically just what you did.
Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:43 pm GMT by Aves
checking the turn is a horrible mistake.
depending if he's generally weak or passive (as i suspect most opponents are at this level), you should fold to the turn checkraise. if he's pretty agressive, then you can call the raise and reevaluate on the river.
Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:45 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| Aves wrote: | checking the turn is a horrible mistake.
depending if he's generally weak or passive (as i suspect most opponents are at this level), you should fold to the turn checkraise. if he's pretty agressive, then you can call the raise and reevaluate on the river. |
If you're willing to fold for one extra bet, why is checking so horrible?
Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:51 pm GMT by Aves
simply because you are most likely ahead and checking gives a free card to anyone with 1 club, a 9, or a 10. its a pretty straightforward hand, imho.
Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:30 pm GMT by suitedaces84
I misread the hand originally, I think you played it fine. Pay this one off unless villian is very passive and I agree w/Aves checking the turn is bad.
Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:02 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
I can't see how you possibly fold to the checkraise unless your opponent is exteremely tight. You have to go with the odds, and with the pot so big and you with a pretty good hand, i think folding to the check raise is very weak. You're missing out on a lot of extra bets by checking the turn because the majority of the time he doesnt have the flush. Obviously once he check raises, flush should be the first thing you think of, but you have to call it off, or ppl will be making that play at you all night.
Posted Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:32 am GMT by Biowza
ahh i assumed it was no-limit
my bad
Posted Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:39 am GMT by tame_deuces
Entire hand looks thorougly solid to me.
We can probably find a fold on the turn versus exceptionally passive&weak opponents, but meh, its not that important.
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