"I didn't want to get outdrawn... |
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Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:27 pm GMT by Johny
so I tried to make my opponent fold."
This is something that I hear quite often and I don't understand it at all.
When we're playing poker, we want to maximize our potential profits, right? Then how can forcing our opponents to fold the worse hand maximize our profits? Now don't get me wrong, we don't want to give our opponents free cards or give them proper odds to call.
Also, "it's better to win a small pot then to lose a big one". If you aren't willing to go broke with your premium hands, which applies moreso to postflop, then you're playing the wrong game. When you have an edge, try to maximize your winnings, period.
Example:
Late stages of a NLHE MTT. The blinds are 1000/2000.
Your stack: 100 000
Villain (BB): 100 000
You're dealt A  A  in the CO. Action folds around to you. You raise to 6000 and Villain calls. Villain is known to chase flush or straight draws for the wrong price, but you notice that he folds draws to pot sized bets.
The flop comes 9  7 3 pot:13 000
Villain checks, you bet 9000. Villain calls. Now with your read, you put him on a draw.
The turn comes 9 7 3 3  pot: 31 000
Villain checks. Now the pot is getting big compared to your stack. This is something I sometimes see. Hero will panic and move-in to "protect" his hand. I really dislike this. I understand the thinking behind it, but I think it's wrong. Since you're confident that Villain will call off a smaller bet with his draw, then make the smaller bet.
On the turn, bet around 20 000. You're going to make more money that way in the long run, so why not take advantage of it?
This more than likely isn't anything new for experienced players. I thought it was important for less experienced players though.
I just wanted to demonstrate that there's no need to panic. If you get outdrawn, it happens.
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Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:44 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
If your opponent is drawing, you want to bet the maximum amount possible, such that he will still call and make the biggest error by calling. As long as your opponent makes a move that is -EV in a heads-up pot, you make money by default (assuming of course your own move is not even more -EV).
On the turn listed above, if you think the villain will call a pot-sized bet, but no more, you should bet the pot. If 20k is the most he will call, you should bet 20k, because with a flush draw he still has the worst of it (2.5-to-1 as a 4-to-1 dog). Conversely, if you know your opponent will call your all-in with a flush draw, you SHOULD bet all-in, because he makes a huge mistake by calling. Sure, when he hits his flush most of out heroes will say "you f*cking donkey how can you call with a flush draw?" but miss the big picture--you made the best possible move with your hand.
| Quote: | | "it's better to win a small pot then to lose a big one" |
I hear this one a lot, too, and while true, it often indicates a poor understanding of the game. Of course it's better to win a small pot than lose a big one. It's always better to win than to lose. But if you're a 4-to-1 favorite when you play the big pot, you win an average of 4 big pots, and lose only 1 big pot, a net profit of 3 big pots (assuming the pots are of similar size). And I think we would all agree that winning 3 big pots in expectation is better than winning 1 small pot.
You hit the nail on the head, Johnny.
Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:02 pm GMT by Johny
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | If your opponent is drawing, you want to bet the maximum amount possible, such that he will still call and make the biggest error by calling. As long as your opponent makes a move that is -EV in a heads-up pot, you make money by default (assuming of course your own move is not even more -EV). |
I forgot to add that, thanks.
Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:20 pm GMT by Sid Lambert
i agree w/ the general idea, but you have to be careful, cuz he could've picked up a couple more outs along they way, like drawing for trips, two pair or a gutshot....ppl may legitimately want to protect their hand by betting a bunch in case the other guy picked up these extra outs
Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:10 pm GMT by tame_deuces
It probably applies better in a ring setting than a tournament game setting. In a tournament, chip EV doesn't translate directly to dollar EV and what sounds good in a ring game can be wrong in tournaments.
It's a pretty advanced subject and I don't care too much about since I really don't really play that many tournaments. Suffice to say we often have much greater interest in our hand holding up in a tournament than in a ring game.
In a ring game we have no need to protect our hand at all, all we need to do is to extract maximum value from it, which is is in 99% of the cases done by betting.
I agree totally with your post for ring games. But evenso, if the pots grow really big then I have to say I'd prefer just taking them down. Its no fun losing big pots and for me personally it can destroy my game, especially live where big pots come so rarely.
Ofcourse, heavy overbetting or moving in just for tools. That isn't protecting anything, and versus people like that I'd play pocket pairs all day long because of the implied odds (that's an NL insult).
Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:27 pm GMT by TheSalche
i agree with dueces here
when you're playing in a tournament, it may be +EV in the long run for you to make the play you are describing, but it may be +$EV for you to get your opponent to fold that flush draw and allow you to last longer at the final table
in cash games, you dont care because you can always just rebuy and probably make money off that same player who called with the flush draw
Posted Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:24 pm GMT by suitedaces84
Good post. One thing that most new players don't understand it that it's okay to lose a buy-in or bust out of a tourney. Everyone needs to stop trying to win every time they play because in poker this isn't realistic.
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