Posted Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:35 am GMT by mortaleclipse
2/5 NL at the casino
Hero - 550$ 4/5 diamonds / on button
villian 1 - 120$ raises to 50
villian 2- 850$ calls
villian 3 - 400$ calls
Hero calls
Flop
3 clubs, 6 diamonds , 7 diamonds
Villian 1- all in for 70$
Villian 2 - raises 200$
Villian 3 - calls 200 $
Ok you can assume whats going on in hero's head. Only one move at this point.
ALL IN for 500$
Villian 2 - calls 500$
Villian 3 - calls with rest of chips 200$
at this point everyone can flip over cards cause 3/4 people are all in and hero has the NUTZ at this point
Everyone and really the kid who called the 500 just faces droped when hero flipped over his cards. The hand never lost value and hero racked in 1900$ pot. I know that number seams alittle high but i cant remeber all the action when it came to exact bets and ammounts of chips but I know that was the amount of pot.
It wasnt me but luckly it was my older brother who I was sitting next to and lets say didnt argue with giving me some of his winnings. 
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Posted Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:54 am GMT by shorn7
Well, assuming the chip counts at the beginning are right, you couldn't have raked in a 1900 pot. But that is neither here nor there.
I don't like your preflop call at all. I know you are probably thinking "with all the callers in front of me, I have huge implied odds to call." But there are two problems with this:
1. The most likely person for you to double through is the preflop raiser. He has only $120 in front, so he doesn't have enough to make the call reasonable. Callers of preflop raises are likely to have hands similar to yours or middle pocket pairs so unless you flop the nuts like you did and they flop top set (or a bigger draw), you won't get paid.
2. The size of the preflop raise makes it close to impossible for you to make $$ on this hand long run. The problem is your stack size is too small. Generally, you want to be able to assume that you can win 20x the current bet on average to make the call. Again, assuming that you won't get three donkeys to push in (which, despite it happening here, 99% of the time you won't), you don't have enough chips to win 20x here.
Hands like 54s are menat to be played as limping hands or calling raises in deep stack situations. Despite the large win on this hand, if you make this call preflop consistently, you will be a long term loser on these hands.
Posted Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:46 pm GMT by mortaleclipse
| shorn7 wrote: | Well, assuming the chip counts at the beginning are right, you couldn't have raked in a 1900 pot. But that is neither here nor there.
I don't like your preflop call at all. I know you are probably thinking "with all the callers in front of me, I have huge implied odds to call." But there are two problems with this:
1. The most likely person for you to double through is the preflop raiser. He has only $120 in front, so he doesn't have enough to make the call reasonable. Callers of preflop raises are likely to have hands similar to yours or middle pocket pairs so unless you flop the nuts like you did and they flop top set (or a bigger draw), you won't get paid.
2. The size of the preflop raise makes it close to impossible for you to make $$ on this hand long run. The problem is your stack size is too small. Generally, you want to be able to assume that you can win 20x the current bet on average to make the call. Again, assuming that you won't get three donkeys to push in (which, despite it happening here, 99% of the time you won't), you don't have enough chips to win 20x here.
Hands like 54s are menat to be played as limping hands or calling raises in deep stack situations. Despite the large win on this hand, if you make this call preflop consistently, you will be a long term loser on these hands. |
Funny how he is up about 3k this month. The pot was right but like I said I didnt know exact chip counts but I know after he counted his pot he said it was 1.9k and change. You wanna know what these guys had
villian 1- pocket kings
villian 2 - 67s so he floped top 2 pair
villian 3 - pocket jacks
I dont think calling this raise was bad consiedering at the casino blinds are 2/5 and max buy in is 300 bucks so its a very loose game. He knew if this flop hit he was going to get action and that is exactly what happened. I would agree with you but how much money he has made this year alone in cards I kind follow his footsteps into leading me into a better poker player. So long term is a winner not a loser like you are saying.
Posted Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:20 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
Hes not saying you're a loser for making that play. Hes saying that if you played those exact cards in that exact situation preflop over and over again, you'd end up losing money.
Posted Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:19 pm GMT by shorn7
Right. And, that makes the play -EV over the long term. The actual result of this hand is irrelevant...don't decide that he made the right play based on the fact that he won.
And, even if your friend is up $3k for a month, that isn't really a long time either. Cards can run good or bad for much longer than that, so I wouldn't base your decision on whether to mimic his play based on one month's results.
Play how you want...I am just telling you that from a mathematical standpoint, he had an easy fold preflop.
Posted Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:55 pm GMT by mortaleclipse
I understand what you are saying however I was just stating this month alone which was not including that pot he was up 3k. Now its about 5k or so. I mean last year alone my bro made about 10k. Its not bad and the calls he makes with his ability to read people are just incredible. Its always a exciting experience when i watch him and play and when im sitting at the same table. He just told me his cards felt very live preflop with the way these other guys were betting.
Posted Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:08 pm GMT by foldhappy
| Quote: | | He just told me his cards felt very live preflop with the way these other guys were betting |
so they were crimped? seriously though, what can be meant by "felt very live preflop" other than "they couldn't possibly be playing the same junk I"m playing, so I must have a shot at it"?
Honestly, I hate these stories. While I'm sure he's a fine player, you can't illustrate that on such a lucky hand. And of course, now we're forced to think he's won a bunch of money playing like that over a short time, while the true grinders do their thing, knowing that it won't be for a month or two that reality will set in for the lucksacks of the world and we'll have to put up with it until then. Not to mention the whining when it goes downhill.
How about a post where he watched two tables for over an hour while he was on the waiting list and how picking up the betting patterns on several players led him to choosing one seat over the other and how THAT turned profitable?
It's called being results oriented.......see, there ain't no $1900 pot at the end of the table/seat selection rainbow.
Posted Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:28 am GMT by mortaleclipse
Didnt mean to offend you man. I was just telling a exciting story about a insane hand that was won by my bro. I mean really, i post a story and all you guys do is talk about how stupid he was to call that in the first place. If he is a winning poker player or a losing one you will have no idea except what you want to believe. The table was crazy that night. Just one example of a losing hand he had was when a lady called a 100 dollar preflop raise by him with 10/8o and hits a straight on the river and he had rockets. All said and done he lost about 500 dollars in that hand. Yea dumb play by her in the so called "long run" but as well as we all know, board can change your gold mine hand into crap.
Posted Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:47 am GMT by ki_cz
| mortaleclipse wrote: | | Didnt mean to offend you man. I was just telling a exciting story about a insane hand that was won by my bro. I mean really, i post a story and all you guys do is talk about how stupid he was to call that in the first place. If he is a winning poker player or a losing one you will have no idea except what you want to believe. The table was crazy that night. Just one example of a losing hand he had was when a lady called a 100 dollar preflop raise by him with 10/8o and hits a straight on the river and he had rockets. All said and done he lost about 500 dollars in that hand. Yea dumb play by her in the so called "long run" but as well as we all know, board can change your gold mine hand into crap. |
This is similar to saying "well it's ok to play any 2 cards because the boards can make any 2 cards win". It really isn't the right way to think about poker. Luck runs out, period. People calling big pf raises with 4/5, 10/8 are going to lose money in the long run. You can be lucky for 6 months, but lose it all in 2 weeks if you play stupid hands and hit the flop once in a while. It doesn't really matter how much your bro has won over the past year, or how loose the table is, playing 4/5 with a 10xbb raise is just plain stupid and I'd be happy if I was sitting at a table with somebody calling those bets because I'll be taking them to the cleaners eventually.
Posted Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:19 am GMT by shorn7
Let me clarify. I do not agree that playing 45s or T8s is stupid at all. There can definitely be situations where these hands are entirely appropriate and positive EV to play. In fact, in some cases you would be LOSING money by folding them.
My point all along was that these types of hands need (1) quite deep stacks to play and (2) players that are willing to commit their stacks with overpairs when you do hit. In the case you described, your bro seemed to have the second critieria. But, IMO the money wasn't deep enough to mathematically make his preflop call profitable. Since the key (again, IMO) to consistent winning poker (i.e., not relying on the luck factor, only the skill) is making good, mathetmatically sound decisions over and over, this is a situation where I would have passed without a second thought.
I apologize if I came off as harsh on this...that was never my intention. I understand it was a fun hand and to see your bro rake in $2k was probably great. But, I saw it as an opportunity to interject a different viewpoint on the hand from what you presented.
Anyway, I hope no hard feelings from what I said in my posts mortal. I am just here trying to learn and get better like everyone else.
Shorn
Posted Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:33 am GMT by ki_cz
I will also clarify by saying that I did not say that these hands themselves are stupid, but I find that if you get lucky for a while with hands such as these, once your luck runs out, stupid decisions with cards like these are easier to make. I find it easier just to avoid playing these hands the vast majority of the time, unless of course the situation calls for it, which in this case, I don't believe it did. Same goes for your example of somebody raising $100 pre-flop with AA, getting called by 10/8 which hit a straight on the river.
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