Posted Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:59 am GMT by StarlightCoast
At any point here do you back off, or do the pot odds alone make the chase the correct play?
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Limit Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)
Preflop: Hero is BB with K  , J  .
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero checks.
Flop: (7.50 SB) 9  , T , 2 (7 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.
By the time it gets back to me I am getting 11.5-1 to make this call. Gutshot draw which I hate chasing, and an overcard, but I am not putting much faith, if any, in the overcard.
Turn: (7.25 BB) 5 (7 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.
10.25-1 to make the call, but the implied odds make the call correct right? Now UTG check raises, but I have to take each bet I face to determine the odds, correct? Also does the second club cause anyone to discount one of my outs and then back away from the hand? When it gets back to me after UTG c/r I am seeing over 15-1 to make tha call.
River: (17.25 BB) Q (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP2 calls.
Sweet!!!!!!
Final Pot: 23.25 BB
Results in white below:
Hero has Kh Jc (straight, king high).
UTG has 5h 5s (three of a kind, fives).
MP2 has 9d Td (two pair, tens and nines).
Outcome: Hero wins 23.25 BB.
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Posted Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:38 pm GMT by JewishPete
Depending on your read, you could have figured you had more outs than you really did, thus sweetening the pot odds. And even so, you made a fine call as it was. you were given you the odds to hit your draw, and it proved to be beneficial. Both Villains misplayed the hands terribly, but I also think that you really should have Raised the pot with the two limpers. It wouldnt have kept you guessing as much as you did.
I'm typically pretty TAG personally, and if two people limp to me and I have a marginal hand like KJ, I will raise it up.
Posted Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:44 pm GMT by StarlightCoast
| JewishPete wrote: | Depending on your read, you could have figured you had more outs than you really did, thus sweetening the pot odds. And even so, you made a fine call as it was. you were given you the odds to hit your draw, and it proved to be beneficial. Both Villains misplayed the hands terribly, but I also think that you really should have Raised the pot with the two limpers. It wouldnt have kept you guessing as much as you did.
I'm typically pretty TAG personally, and if two people limp to me and I have a marginal hand like KJ, I will raise it up. |
I was in the BB and there were 6 callers before it got to me preflop. KJo with 6 already in I would not feel a raise is in order. Check and hope you flop something decent is the best way to approach the situation in my opinion.
Posted Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:58 pm GMT by JewishPete
I didn't see that their were 6 limpers and not 3. Personally (and by all means, many people may disagree with me), I think having 6 limpers into a pot is all the more reason to raise it up at this point. The range of hands that are limping here are not that broad when you think about it. You will basically have suited connectors, Ace-garbage hands, and small PP's. I honestly can't see any hands in this pot that would limp that are more than 50/50 to you or maybe at the most 60/40. No one is limping with an AK,AQ, or AJ here. at these levels KQ have been raised as well for information. TT-AA are also out of the question IMO.
So when you break it down, there is no reason to believe at this point that KJ was not the best or second best hand (to a small PP as we see) in the pot. I think a 4x-5x raise would have scared away any crappy aces or suited connectors and it would have been HU or 3 handed between you and set chasers.
Just my opinion. But again, I think you played the hand well, and the calls were definitely justified with those odds.
Posted Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:22 pm GMT by StarlightCoast
| JewishPete wrote: | I think a 4x-5x raise would have scared away any crappy aces or suited connectors and it would have been HU or 3 handed between you and set chasers.
|
4x-5x raise is not possible.
| StarlightCoast wrote: | | PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Limit Hold'em (9 handed) |
I play limit games. If I did raise it would be a 1xbb raise. Not much chance of chasing anyone away, lol 8)
Posted Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:38 pm GMT by Jernej Zorec
funny really so many times people here say raise 3-4 bb when we are talking LIMIT
really guys makes me wonder about the advice when it comes to limit games
and anyway i think the play is right
pf i dont want to build a pot with KJo and after the flop u played it fine
although u basicly had 8-1 pot odds on turn
Posted Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:39 pm GMT by Dave B
I dont mind your chase here, although it is questionable.
2 points of caution to your thought process that you may have considered, but didnt mention.
1) Your gutshot makes the nuts, if it doesnt, I lay down here. There is nothing worse than hitting a gutshot and losing more to a bigger straight.
2) If the board pairs at any point with action like this, be very careful-someone likely has 2 pair or a set.
And yes, the second club does count me to discount the hand. Runner runner isnt likely, but if someone has a pair w/ the clubs, they wont be going anyway. Even a pure flush draw 3 to the flush isnt likely to fold (esp if they have the A giving an overcard) with this kind of action on a $.50/$1 game.
Posted Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:36 pm GMT by JewishPete
Meh, my bad. I thought it was NL. The hand history confused me quite a bit and I didn't realize we were talkign FL. I concede :D
Posted Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:32 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| JewishPete wrote: | | Meh, my bad. I thought it was NL. The hand history confused me quite a bit and I didn't realize we were talkign FL. I concede :D |
How's it feel Pete?...  . I do it all the time except they come to expect it from me...
Posted Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:53 pm GMT by lwestatbus
I agree with your play and for the reasons you stated. Even discounting the value of pairing your K you still had good odds to call. I also play limit and you know that your cost to stay in the pot is limited. This can work against you (like it did for UTG with the set of fives in your hand--he ran afoul of the flip side of protecting his hand by making the pot so large that he made it worth while for a drawing hand to stay in). I've made a lot of money by chasing drawing hands and occassionally seeing a flop with horrible cards when there was enough money in the pot to make it worth while.
I've got a couple of related questions for the group that come out of this hand.
1. Pete's first and second response recommended raising. I've often wondered when a marginal pre-flop hand with lots of limpers/no raisers in the pot justifies a raise. Especially if you are in the BB you can pretty much count on all the limpers calling the raise. You are basically playing slot machine poker at this point but it is a cheap bet for the possible return.
2. What kind of odds do you want to see preflop before you will see the flop (raised or not) with any two cards, including 72o? I've posted elsewhere about being in the BB w/ 82o, UTG raises, 5 callers!!! so I called, and flop came 222. Whooeeeee.
Posted Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:59 pm GMT by crack
played fine imo
Posted Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:41 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| crack wrote: | | played fine imo |
Ditto.
Posted Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:57 am GMT by Phil14312
| lwestatbus wrote: | I agree with your play and for the reasons you stated. Even discounting the value of pairing your K you still had good odds to call. I also play limit and you know that your cost to stay in the pot is limited. This can work against you (like it did for UTG with the set of fives in your hand--he ran afoul of the flip side of protecting his hand by making the pot so large that he made it worth while for a drawing hand to stay in). I've made a lot of money by chasing drawing hands and occassionally seeing a flop with horrible cards when there was enough money in the pot to make it worth while.
I've got a couple of related questions for the group that come out of this hand.
1. Pete's first and second response recommended raising. I've often wondered when a marginal pre-flop hand with lots of limpers/no raisers in the pot justifies a raise. Especially if you are in the BB you can pretty much count on all the limpers calling the raise. You are basically playing slot machine poker at this point but it is a cheap bet for the possible return.
2. What kind of odds do you want to see preflop before you will see the flop (raised or not) with any two cards, including 72o? I've posted elsewhere about being in the BB w/ 82o, UTG raises, 5 callers!!! so I called, and flop came 222. Whooeeeee. |
1. I raise with premium hands that do well multi-way, AKs, AQs, maaaybbbe AJs, not offsuit big cards, AA, KK, QQ. Its purely for equity.
2. Any two cards I want to be getting at least 9-1 or 10-1. Suited cards maybe 7-1 or 8-1.
Posted Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:46 am GMT by Jernej Zorec
for raising i'd go with advice in SSH when they say u shouls raise suited hands when there are many limpers i dont remember exactly what kind of suited hands he talked about
but i'd probably be willing to raise down to 56s
altho the advice form some of top limit players from around here is that when there is 4 or more limpers u raise with
88+, Axs, Kxs and 54s+
Posted Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:33 pm GMT by Phil14312
| Jernej Zorec wrote: | for raising i'd go with advice in SSH when they say u shouls raise suited hands when there are many limpers i dont remember exactly what kind of suited hands he talked about
but i'd probably be willing to raise down to 56s
altho the advice form some of top limit players from around here is that when there is 4 or more limpers u raise with
88+, Axs, Kxs and 54s+ |
Thats a pretty wide range to be raising from. I only raise my premium hands OOP into a bunch of limpers.
Posted Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:44 pm GMT by Jernej Zorec
the advice is generally for late positions
but same range applies when playing from big blind just that in that case u want 5 guys in
Posted Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:55 pm GMT by Phil14312
I still don't think you should be raising 56s into a bunch of limpers in LP. Its not horrible, but I doubt its +EV.
Posted Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:03 pm GMT by Sid Lambert
i like the fact that the small blind folded after *6* limpers 
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