SnG: Great, Yet Terrible flop. |
|
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:13 am GMT by Dat_Dude
This is somewhat of a step-by-step hand.
PokerStars Game #5683104769: Tournament #28755170, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2006/07/25 - 22:34:29 (ET)
Table '28755170 1' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: e_bloc (2305 in chips)
Seat 4: annpat44 (2980 in chips)
Seat 6: FRY420 (1735 in chips)
Seat 7: stonedoyle (2570 in chips)
Seat 8: Diesel_IA (3910 in chips)
Diesel_IA: posts small blind 50
e_bloc: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Diesel_IA  
annpat44: raises 100 to 200
FRY420: folds
stonedoyle: calls 200
Diesel_IA: calls 150
e_bloc: folds
*** FLOP ***   
Ok. So I flopped two pair, but that is a pretty nasty flop. What line do I take?
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:54 am GMT by zinn0
I think you have to lead this flop...don't give anyone a shot at a free diamond.
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:26 am GMT by shorn7
By the hand history, looks like you will be last to act, right? If you are checked to, then you have to lead, but if you are called then you have to shut it down and play SPP from then on. If you were first, I might just check and hope to see a sfe turn card for not that much $$. I think I would need to improve upon this 2 pair before committing serious $$ to the pot. But, I suk at SnG's so what do I know...
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:48 am GMT by Dat_Dude
| shorn7 wrote: | | By the hand history, looks like you will be last to act, right? |
I am small blind, so I am first to act.
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:16 am GMT by UrAteUp
Pot size bet to start off with. You want to isolate a few players. The only ones who should stay in is anyone playing 910 or anyone with  .
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:13 am GMT by Dat_Dude
I did lead on the flop here.
*** FLOP ***
Diesel_IA: bets 500
annpat44: folds
stonedoyle: calls 500
*** TURN *** 
Diesel_IA: ?????
Now, I don't know if I have enough information at this point. He just called the near pot-sized bet, which could mean he made his flush or it could mean he is drawing to a high diamond with a straight draw, say a hand like Ad9. The turn is a good card for me barring I am ahead.
What to do next?
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:41 am GMT by BeerWench13
I'd have check-raised the flop instead of betting. If everyone checks, then you get a free card. The big bet, IMO, screamed that you didn't have the nuts (maybe the straight at best, definitely not the flush).
Given the situation, I think you have to bet the turn. I wouldn't bet as much as pot (~1600 if my calculations are correct). Perhaps a bet of ~750-1000 will give you an idea of where you are.
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:44 am GMT by Miss_J
| BeerWench13 wrote: | | I'd have check-raised the flop instead of betting. If everyone checks, then you get a free card. . |
but then also, so do they....
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:50 am GMT by BeerWench13
There's always risk when check-raising. I just think it'd have shown more strength to check-raise, giving the impression that you were just waiting for someone to put some of their chips in the pot for you to get paid. Misdirection, Stan.
If the action heats up before it gets back to you, you can easily bow out and lay it down having invested nothing more than the preflop call. If everyone checks, you have more firing power on the turn as long as another diamond doesn't fall.
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:15 pm GMT by UrAteUp
I have to confess I misread this the first time..  ...doesn't surprise anyone I am sure. I didn't see the 3 flush on the board. I don't think I would have lead the betting here after all. I think for the most part your flirting with danger here.
Since you did lead the betting the main thing you have to do is try and see the end of this as cheaply as possible in case your beat. I would bet the turn. Again pot bet it and pray your not already beat.
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:23 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
| UrAteUp wrote: |
Since you did lead the betting the main thing you have to do is try and see the end of this as cheaply as possible in case your beat. I would bet the turn. Again pot bet it and pray your not already beat. |
You contradicted yourself here. You said I should try and see the river for cheap in case I am beat, and yet you want me to bet pot on the turn? Pot at this point is approximately 1600, which is half my stack and all but 200 of Villain's stack. That doesn't sound too cheap to me.
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:38 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| Dat_Dude wrote: | | UrAteUp wrote: |
Since you did lead the betting the main thing you have to do is try and see the end of this as cheaply as possible in case your beat. I would bet the turn. Again pot bet it and pray your not already beat. |
You contradicted yourself here. You said I should try and see the river for cheap in case I am beat, and yet you want me to bet pot on the turn? Pot at this point is approximately 1600, which is half my stack and all but 200 of Villain's stack. That doesn't sound too cheap to me. |
Damn it Dat...do you demand perfection?....  . My reading and attention to detail fails me today (like always...  ).
Ok first after seeing my mistake in not catching the 3 flush on the board, I have to change my way of thinking on playing this hand. With the straight and flush draws on the board I probably would not lead off in the betting here. I would be looking for ways to see the turn and river cheaply. You have only 4 outs (6 or 7 of    ) here but your not drawing dead unless someone mucks either of your outs or already holds them.
Personally here is where I start looking for one of my outs or a good reason to fold. Your treading in some dangerous waters with hands like these.
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:52 pm GMT by zinn0
I think check-raising this flop is bad for more than one reason.
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:59 pm GMT by BeerWench13
| zinn0 wrote: | | I think check-raising this flop is bad for more than one reason |
Would you mind expanding on this? I'm a horrible SNG player, and this may be another hole in my game. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:07 pm GMT by zinn0
In my most humble of opinions, check-raising the flop does two things we are trying to avoid. First, it builds the pot, something we don't want at this point. A side-effect of building the pot is the fact that we also become more commited. Second, planning to check-raise could inadvertently give away a free card, something else we don't want at this point.
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:15 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
| zinn0 wrote: | | In my most humble of opinions, check-raising the flop does two things we are trying to avoid. First, it builds the pot, something we don't want at this point. A side-effect of building the pot is the fact that we also become more commited. Second, planning to check-raise could inadvertently give away a free card, something else we don't want at this point. |
I completely agree with this, which is why I fired an almost pot-sized bet.
Zinn, what would you recommend I do on the turn, given the little information we have at this point?
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:19 pm GMT by BeerWench13
Makes sense. My idea of a check-raise here was to represent the nut flush. I play extremely aggressively in SNG's and, IMO, this would show the most strength.
I see your point though. How much would you have bet on the flop and then what to do on the turn if you're called?
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:25 pm GMT by zinn0
Personally, I would lead again here. It seems like he is playing something like AK with one or maybe an overpair (99-JJ) without a . I would probably bet 750-1000. Just enough to give him shitty odds to draw. If he calls we'll need to make the proverbial 're-evaluation' on the river.
Also, I really hate playing this hand OOP.
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:35 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| zinn0 wrote: | Personally, I would lead again here. It seems like he is playing something like AK with one or maybe an overpair (99-JJ) without a . I would probably bet 750-1000. Just enough to give him shitty odds to draw. If he calls we'll need to make the proverbial 're-evaluation' on the river.
Also, I really hate playing this hand OOP. |
With a bet of 750-1000 he does become pot commited. What if villian has the flush and is letting Dat feed the pot and then push him all-in at the end (if he doesn't get their on his own...lol) ? What if villian has a straight and refuses to lay it down as well? Your drawing for four outs at best to beat either a straight or flush. Is that worth your stack?
I do agree this is a really bad hand to have Oop.
Just my opinion.
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:41 pm GMT by zinn0
| UrAteUp wrote: | | With a bet of 750-1000 he does become pot commited. |
Hero will still have over 20bb's, he's hardly committed. Also, I know if I raised pre, and somehow flopped a straight on that board, I would try and raise the flop to *hopefully* chase out any diamonds.
Villains raise almost rules out T9. The only hands I would honestly worry about at this point are AKd and AQd. If you check the turn, and give villain the chance to get a free diamond, you are going to be pissed if he hits. If you check/call the turn, you have no more information than you had on the flop. I really think this is a must bet situation.
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:42 pm GMT by BeerWench13
| UrAteUp wrote: | | I do agree this is a really bad hand to have Oop. |
Ditto. I probably wouldn't have gotten involved with this preflop, however, it's always good to know what you should do when it does happen (I do drink after all :D ).
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:28 pm GMT by Phil14312
Effective stack sizes make a pot size bet all-in for the other player. I really think you are ahead, unless villain flopped the nut flush. I'm pretty much willing to go broke here, I move in on the turn. You almost certainly have the best hand, protect it. If he has a flush, he played it odd not raising on the flop. If he is drawing to a diamond, he will do so incorrectly if you push. This pot is not small enough to play small-pot poker. Its like over 1600 chips right? Push is my vote.
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:21 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| zinn0 wrote: | | UrAteUp wrote: | | With a bet of 750-1000 he does become pot commited. |
Hero will still have over 20bb's, he's hardly committed. Also, I know if I raised pre, and somehow flopped a straight on that board, I would try and raise the flop to *hopefully* chase out any diamonds.
Villains raise almost rules out T9. The only hands I would honestly worry about at this point are AKd and AQd. If you check the turn, and give villain the chance to get a free diamond, you are going to be pissed if he hits. If you check/call the turn, you have no more information than you had on the flop. I really think this is a must bet situation. |
Ok learning here Zinn0...so got a couple questions buddy.
First...why rule out 910s? That bet was only a 2xBB bet. I would have to put villian on something decent but not super with a 2xBB. Possibly a mid pp such as 99. In which case you would want to put some gas to your betting to get him off of a potential flush or straight draw. Or I could also put him on suited connectors with that min raise. Maybe I am just thinking strange or I play more aggressively with big hands such as AX in SNGs. Tell me what you think please.
Second, Phil too says bet strong here but what happens if your betting two pair into a made hand? You loosing money hand over fist and if he pushes the guy all in then he is down to less then 2000 chips unless I looked at the numbers wrong.
Is it me or wouldn't it be better to throw this hand away and wait for a more sure hand to try to take down some good chips?
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:30 pm GMT by zinn0
Betting 750-1000 will give drawing hands unfavorable odds to chase, but will leave us with over 20bb's if Villain decides to play back and we opt to dump the hand. It doesn't matter if you bet 750 or if you push, as long as you give villain shitty odds you have made the profitable play.
Ughhh, can't resist...
| David Sklansky wrote: | | Do you see why? |
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:02 pm GMT by UrAteUp
And if villian isn't playing odds ? or has a made hand then we dump ?
I do understand throwing the odds off and making drawing hands nasty to play. But anyone with A is going to stick and maybe even lesser 's.
I also understand if they do call and big bet and hit the flush or already have it then hero still has chips, but SS has more chips and is still around.
Hero also has outs but with 1 card to come...he doesn't have many.
Like I said I can see why you say play this hand like this but I think it would be better to fold it and wait.
just my opinion.. 
Now Dat man...how did the rest go?
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:38 pm GMT by zinn0
| UrAteUp wrote: | And if villian isn't playing odds ? or has a made hand then we dump ?
I do understand throwing the odds off and making drawing hands nasty to play. But anyone with A is going to stick and maybe even lesser 's.
I also understand if they do call and big bet and hit the flush or already have it then hero still has chips, but SS has more chips and is still around.
Hero also has outs but with 1 card to come...he doesn't have many.
Like I said I can see why you say play this hand like this but I think it would be better to fold it and wait.
just my opinion..
Now Dat man...how did the rest go? |
Are you suggesting we open-fold the turn?
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:01 am GMT by TheSalche
| Phil14312 wrote: | | Effective stack sizes make a pot size bet all-in for the other player. I really think you are ahead, unless villain flopped the nut flush. I'm pretty much willing to go broke here, I move in on the turn. You almost certainly have the best hand, protect it. If he has a flush, he played it odd not raising on the flop. If he is drawing to a diamond, he will do so incorrectly if you push. This pot is not small enough to play small-pot poker. Its like over 1600 chips right? Push is my vote. |
I agree with Phil here.
Most players will call bets on the flop getting poor odds with flush draws, but often will fold to strength on the turn (really what we want). This is a great early on hand to build a chip stack.
If he's got the flush, at least you have a few outs, but I'd say 80 - 90% your hand is good here
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:42 am GMT by UrAteUp
| zinn0 wrote: | | UrAteUp wrote: | And if villian isn't playing odds ? or has a made hand then we dump ?
I do understand throwing the odds off and making drawing hands nasty to play. But anyone with A is going to stick and maybe even lesser 's.
I also understand if they do call and big bet and hit the flush or already have it then hero still has chips, but SS has more chips and is still around.
Hero also has outs but with 1 card to come...he doesn't have many.
Like I said I can see why you say play this hand like this but I think it would be better to fold it and wait.
just my opinion..
Now Dat man...how did the rest go? |
Are you suggesting we open-fold the turn? |
Nope, not at all. I just wouldn't push or try to get villian all in at this point. Throw out a cheesy bet to make it look like we want him to call. If he has fears we made a flush then he will pick up on the small bet as a way to lure him in and extract the most money from him that we can. If he has a made hand then we get out as cheaply as possible. If we hit our boat then we can force villian all in and most likely get him all in if he has a straight or flush.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:56 am GMT by Dat_Dude
Well, my thinking was along the lines of Phil and Salche. I figured I was ahead and villain was drawing to the final diamond. I wanted to bet enough to make it incorrect for him to call, but due to the relative stack sizes, this is pretty much taking the hand all the way.
Here is the rest of the action:
*** TURN ***
Diesel_IA: bets 1400
stonedoyle: raises 470 to 1870 and is all-in
Diesel_IA: calls 470
*** RIVER *** 
Diesel_IA: shows (two pair, Sevens and Sixes)
stonedoyle: shows   (a flush, King high)
stonedoyle collected 5440 from pot
...and the best part
stonedoyle said, "fish"
The main reason for this post was to find out if there was some way of getting away from this hand after the flop bet and to see how many people actually put him on the flush. I really think he played it quite poorly, because if he already had a made flush he should have raised in case I was holding the A . Oh well.
Any closing thoughts?
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:39 pm GMT by Phil14312
| Dat_Dude wrote: | | I wanted to bet enough to make it incorrect for him to call, but due to the relative stack sizes, this is pretty much taking the hand all the way. |
Bingo! So we walked into a flush this time. Bleh, we still got more chips. Sucks but it happens. If you check, you are asking him to take the pot away from you. If you bet, its all-in.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:09 pm GMT by UrAteUp
I can't say I lay down all the time when a 3 flush board hits but more times then not I will. I guess it all depends on the read I have of the other players. Personally I check after the flop and then see if anyone else bets. Play it as I see bet. In other word if I feel someone is just trying to take the pot down thenb I might call with Dats hand. If they bet enough to try to drag me into this pot then usually I back away. That's usually a sure sign of a trap play.
He called you a fish... ...thats classic. Shame you didn't suck out on him and hit a boat...
|
|
